Rippling effect

[martina hawe]

Hi

Does anyone have any suggestions on how to create a rippling effect on figured maple?

Having stroked a few backs recently I could feel this rippling sensation and I very much liked the optical effect of it, making the surface look a bit more interesting.

Is it possible to get this effect on ribs too without weakening them too much?

Thanks for your help!!!

Cheers

Martina

[Roderick Quiros]

hmmmm.... like this, you mean?

http://www.italiastrings.com/g/5.html

[stradofear]

Hold your scraper vertical to the wood, not tilted, in line with the curls, and scrape roughly, pressing down into thw wood. It helps if you wet the wood first. This will give you an ugly, torn scraping with lots of waviness, which then can be smoothed out by scraping conventionally with a very sharp scraper.

[fiddlecollector]

Hold your scraper vertical to the wood, not tilted, in line with the curls, and scrape roughly, pressing down into thw wood. It helps if you wet the wood first. This will give you an ugly, torn scraping with lots of waviness, which then can be smoothed out by scraping conventionally with a very sharp scraper.

I seem to get that effect all the time by just scraping parallel to the flame as i think Stradofear is suggesting.I dont get any tearing though.I use the same shape flexible scrapers for the whole instrument which are called industrial razor blades which i buy in boxes of 200.They are very flexible and i dont feel the need for any other type of scraper.

This is what i use.razors

I use them single handed mostly with my thumb pressing in the middle to control the curve to what i want.

[Michael_Molnar]

Stradofear: Berkeley rules!

Fiddlecollector: do you put a burr on one edge and dull the other to avoid cutting yourself? In any case, this flexible razor is a great idea.

Thanks.

Mike

[Magnus Nedregard]

Good question. Wetting + using a flexible scraper? Seems to contradict the widespread belief that the cremonese used stiff scrapers though. Maybe it is sufficient to hold the scraper parallel to the flame, I actually never tried, since I once was thought to do the opposite thing. What are those thingys in you profile pic?

[stradofear]

Good question. Wetting + using a flexible scraper? Seems to contradict the widespread belief that the cremonese used stiff scrapers though. Maybe it is sufficient to hold the scraper parallel to the flame, I actually never tried, since I once was thought to do the opposite thing. What are those thingys in you profile pic?

Magnus, I'm not addressing widespread beliefs, I'm saying how to accomplish the objective. :-)

"Thingys"???? It's a cartoon of a cat.

[Darren Molnar]

Hi Martina

I'm with the others on the flexible sraper suggestions. These work well;

http://www.leevalley.com/wood/page.aspx?c=...,41069&ap=1

When doing ribs for example, use normal scraper first, then a few passes with the flexible one.

( done before bending )

[martina hawe]

Hi

Thanks for your advice and tips. I´ll see how I get on with it...

Martina

[Magnus Nedregard]

"Thingys"???? It's a cartoon of a cat.

Oh, that one was actually addressed to Martina, I've got no problem with the cat.

[Melvin Goldsmith]

Hi Martina

Once the instrument is finished relatively smooth in the white a thorough humidity cycling during the tannng process can induce a degree of ripple effect.

Methds mentioned above also. I have even faked it in the past by scraping along the flame with a curved scraper before scraping with the grain to finish..ie..kind of carving the ripple effect in...I know others have done that...I don't think 'd do it these days tho.

You could also try using green wood

[martina hawe]

Hi

I had a go finishing the back arching I worked on.

Jesus, it sounds easier than it actually is... very odd to scrape wet wood if you´re not used to it.

I used my 0.4 scraper with a 45 bevel and didn´t get much ripple at first, after a while I found scraping slowly and pushing the scraper to work well. Lots of tearing and messy looking surface

I suppose the ripple effect will be enhanced once it´s varnished???

Melvin, whats a "thorough" humidity cycling? Does your instrument get directly touched by water to raise the ripple during that process?

Hi Magnus, those thingys don´t appear on my screen, I still see my old avatar although I changed it... they´re called "Gemse", kind of alpine mountain goats who can climb extremely well.

The link posted above showing a ripply Amati copy, do you really see that much ripple on cremonese instruments? Is there more ripple in the upper lower bouts than down in the C´s, due to the areas being different in how freely they can be worked with scrapers? (to me it feels easier scraping away along the long arch and upper/lower bout areas than the C´s... might just be me though)

about stiff vs. flexible scrapers, does it really give a different result in this position, I mean once you hold your scraper vertical you´ll need to support it a lot anyway, guess stiffer one is easier but the effect should be same...

Martina

[fiddlecollector]

Stradofear: Berkeley rules!

Fiddlecollector: do you put a burr on one edge and dull the other to avoid cutting yourself? In any case, this flexible razor is a great idea.

Thanks.

Mike

Mike i use them straight out of the packet ,i havent cut myself once with one.When they go a bit dull i just rub them a few times on a DMT fine stone at about 5% off vertical,to raise a slight burr on one side.Ive found i can do the whole instrument with one scraper apart from little bits like approaching the corners.I dont wet the grain at all though.For certain parts like the scroll i use the large curves exacto knife blades as a scraper(these dont bend).Ive never had much liking for the traditional type of violin scrapers.

[Mauricio]

Martina, with ripples and an affinity for certain quadrupeds, if I didn't know any better I'd say you're under the influence of a certain master who walks these pages...

I didn't say anything.

[David Tseng]

You've seen David Burgess' violin in Portland. PM and ask him how he did it.

[jezzupe]

this "effect" is referred to as "grain mottle"....or mottling....within the world of professional wood working it is generally considered a no'no' and is something to be avoided....yet sometimes is a desire effect

certain wood grain will be more susceptible to this effect...

it is simply accentuating the difference in hardness between the spring growth...

it is also referred to as dish out...fine furniture and hardwood flooring are crafts that this can be a big problem...

if you want to make this happen fast and easy....

simply get your basic final graduation and shaping done...and OH MY GOD...use a piece of 100 GRIT SAND PAPER....with the grain followed by 220 grit THEN scrape over that...

the key to this is to NOT fold the sandpaper so as to make it stiffer but to use cheaper sheet sandpaper and use it in a unfolded manner...unlike quality backed paper that can be folded into "blocks" ie. various shapes that conform and hold the shape in a stiff manner....the sandpaper in sheets generally has a paper back that is this....now by using your fingertips,which are soft,and just one layer of paper as you start to sand your fingers will dive in to the softer part and start to "dish it out"...

for example if we study quality body work on a car vrs. bad we will see a ripple in the bondo area....this is also caused by using too soft a backer with no block or air file...

i just did another flat sawn redwood top and accentuated the grain mottle because i like the embossed look...its similar to making the reeds stand out on qaurter'd soft wood

[martina hawe]

Hi

I don´t really want to use sandpaper (evil thing didn´t you know?) ... and scraping worked fine but thanks for your explanations!

My choice of avatar is not really influenced by anyone on MN... pure affinity for those goats and time for an avatar change, the old one got a bit boring

Hi David Tseng, actually it was Isabelle Wilb(e)aux vln at VSA convention which left the biggest impression on me concerning ripple effects.

Martina

[Melvin Goldsmith]

Melvin, whats a "thorough" humidity cycling? Does your instrument get directly touched by water to raise the ripple during that process?

Hi Martina. I'm basically talking a obout during the tanning process....alternately getting the violin very dry in the UV and then moving to a very damp humid environment for a number of hours. No delberate aplication of liquid water. The humidity cycling principal was described a few years ago in the Strad by Alan Beavitt. He cycled finished varnished instruments to epeed up staility and 'enhance' tone one side effect he noticed was the ripple effect appearing in the maple.

I have a new looking fiddle I made in 2003 which seems to have developed riple since I made it.

In another league altogether the Messie Strad is quite ripply.

[martina hawe]

Hi Martina. I'm basically talking a obout during the tanning process....alternately getting the violin very dry in the UV and then moving to a very damp humid environment for a number of hours. No delberate aplication of liquid water. The humidity cycling principal was described a few years ago in the Strad by Alan Beavitt. He cycled finished varnished instruments to epeed up staility and 'enhance' tone one side effect he noticed was the ripple effect appearing in the maple.

I have a new looking fiddle I made in 2003 which seems to have developed riple since I made it.

In another league altogether the Messie Strad is quite ripply.

ok, I´ll try and see what happens

thanks for all your rippling-help!

cheers

martina

[Marc Genevrier]

Hum...

I was just thinking to myself that some newbies like me sometimes get this rippling effect without knowing - or wanting - it ! Actually, I would have thought it to be more difficult to get it perfect smooth - with no ripple at all!

In any case, good luck and let us know!

[MANFIO]

The Batta Strad cello on the Metropolitan Museum in NY has this rippling effect on his back, I don't know if I captured it in this photo?:

[Melvin Goldsmith]

Great Photo! The ripple certainly shows.

I wonder how much of that ripple was there when the instrument was brand new and how much of it occured with age?

[Tim McTigue]

Hum...

I was just thinking to myself that some newbies like me sometimes get this rippling effect without knowing - or wanting - it ! Actually, I would have thought it to be more difficult to get it perfect smooth - with no ripple at all!

In any case, good luck and let us know!

I was basically gonna say the same thing. A couple years ago, when I was scraping the ribs for #1 (still in progress), I noticed they were getting ripply, and after posting here, discovered it was because I was using the scraper incorrectly. I also saw David B. answer at that time that sometimes he did it intentionally for effect. Seems to me to get flamed maple perfectly smooth would be a much larger challenge...

[MANFIO]

Yes Melving, I imagine that humidity plays a great roll in creating this effect... but I imagine that most of the old instruments were subjected to high humidity in some part of their "lives" but some have not got rippled....

[Melvin Goldsmith]

Could it have something to do with how well seasoned ( seasoning does not = time since felled) the wood was?