Tubbs with short adjuster?

[geigen]

Hi everybody,

this beautiful bow looks pretty much like a Tubbs to me, but the adjuster seems to be a bit short for a Tubbs. All the Tubbs that I've seen do have longer adjusters. Does anybody know whether there are Tubbs bows with these kinds of short adjusters?

Thanks, Anne

[Ratcliffiddles]

Anne,

Not sure, throat on frog looks too long, so does the overall length of frog, other characteristics don't jump out and exactly say"TUBBS" to me. Also the stick appears to be varnished with coloured lacker(frog end)

Can you post a pic of the back of the frog and frt on the head. and the screw of couse. That should clinch it.

[geigen]

Sure, voila. (the nose is unfortunately damaged.)

Thanks, Anne

[Ratcliffiddles]

Silver on the back looks wrong. It has the characteristic widening at the lower back frog, but that's not how it happens! The tapering of the silver up to the underslide ain't right

Front of head with sharp edge.

Not a Tubbs to me, and let's face it, when people copy, they almost get it right, so you should expect some characteristics.

Maybe one more picture of the screw?

[Tom McEvilley]

Silver on the back looks wrong. It has the characteristic widening at the lower back frog, but that's not how it happens! The tapering of the silver up to the underslide ain't right

Front of head with sharp edge.

Not a Tubbs to me, and let's face it, when people copy, they almost get it right, so you should expect some characteristics.

Maybe one more picture of the screw?

The throat is definitely too long for Tubbs....

[geigen]

I see. Now here is the adjuster. I also understand that the Tubbs silver heel is usually more squary. Does it make sense to consider another Tubbs family member?

Anne

[Ratcliffiddles]

Screw not like Tubbs either, so I'm afraid, only a fair attempt at a copy, to me at least.

As far as another member, the unique James Tubbs characteristics which have been reproduced, but not completely successfully, rules that out as far as I am concerned.

[fiddlecollector]

I see. Now here is the adjuster. I also understand that the Tubbs silver heel is usually more squary. Does it make sense to consider another Tubbs family member?

Anne

I dont think its anything to do with Tubbs.The head looks German ,especially the narrow ridge at the front of the head as Peter pointed out. The ferrule is very long ,something ive only really seen in some French frogs,such as Simon/Maire school.The heel plate is in one piece which doesnt really suggest Simon /Maire school.Id guess and say it was a better German bow but not sure who.The button is interesting also it seems to have a slight taper but that may be a photo illusion.Does it have any raised pin heads on the button,i cant see any in the photos?

[geigen]

Hm, a copy... well yes... at least something :-)

anyway, I don't think it is German. English by my impression. Thanks, Anne

[Josh Henry]

Hm, a copy... well yes... at least something :-)

anyway, I don't think it is German. English by my impression. Thanks, Anne

Hi Anne,

What impressions make you call this bow English?

[Ratcliffiddles]

Tubbs copies were made both in Germany and France, never really successful though. This one is interesting, as it doesn't really feel like a Tubbs of any particular period. The long square ferrule belongs to the first period, the metal face (it is a silver face?), and the back silver plate attempt ressembles (a bit) the later periods. The screw doesn't ressemble any periods at all. So the copyist didn't do his/her homework... but that seems to be the norm.

I couldn't see a J.Tubbs stamp, is there one?

[fiddlecollector]

Tubbs copies were made both in Germany and France, never really successful though. This one is interesting, as it doesn't really feel like a Tubbs of any particular period. The long square ferrule belongs to the first period, the metal face (it is a silver face?), and the back silver plate attempt ressembles (a bit) the later periods. The screw doesn't ressemble any periods at all. So the copyist didn't do his/her homework... but that seems to be the norm.

I couldn't see a J.Tubbs stamp, is there one?

Peter do you not think the ferrule is far too long ,i mean look at it compared to the adjuster is almost the same length. I dont see anything English in the bow at all.

[Ratcliffiddles]

Yes, I think it is too long, but I have seen some Tubbs bows with overly long ferrules, and again this feature has been accentuated on this bow, that's why it looks wrong. This one is an early James Tubbs, with long and square ferrule, and fairly low in height.http://www.theamaticollection.com/window.p...irca%201860/70:

[Josh Henry]

I too am struggling to see English in the bow pictured above. Honestly, though, I'm not sure what to make of it. To my eye, the frog does look exaggerated, and the screw/button doesn't fit the style. I agree that the heelplate is too tapered for a Tubbs.

I'm not sure the period of this Tubbs bow (a later one possibly?), but to me, it shows nicely all of the features and proportions that I typically would expect on a Tubbs.

http://www.fineviolinbows.com/pictures/Tubbs_gold%20003.jpg

http://www.fineviolinbows.com/pictures/Tubbs_gold%20006.jpg

http://www.fineviolinbows.com/pictures/Tubbs_gold%20008.jpg

http://www.fineviolinbows.com/pictures/Tubbs_gold%20010.jpg

http://www.fineviolinbows.com/pictures/Tubbs_gold%20014.jpg

http://www.fineviolinbows.com/pictures/Tubbs_gold%20015.jpg

http://www.fineviolinbows.com/pictures/Tubbs_gold%20016.jpg

[Ratcliffiddles]

Josh,

That is a beautiful Tubbs, I would say mid to late period, and everything looks, as you say absolutely right. It is interesting how the style evolved from the early WE Hill days, when they looked liked mine, to the absolute standard of later years like the one from you pictures.

[geigen]

Hi Anne,

What impressions make you call this bow English?

Its probably because I have no clue with bows. Must rely on expert opinions.

OK the adjuster (especially the screw) looks very German. Will have Richard Gruenke look at the bow

[Ratcliffiddles]

I see. Now here is the adjuster. I also understand that the Tubbs silver heel is usually more squary. Does it make sense to consider another Tubbs family member?

Anne

Re-visiting your pictures, I think this bow is trying to look like a William Tubbs, still doesn't feel right though, but I think that's the inspiration.

[Maestrolover]

Thanks for posting the "real" Tubbs photos, fascinating to compare it with my own J. Tubbs. When you say mid to late period, roughly what years are you talking about? Would that include ca. 1880?

[geigen]

Re-visiting your pictures, I think this bow is trying to look like a William Tubbs, still doesn't feel right though, but I think that's the inspiration.

...William was actually the initial idea when I was checking through "The British Violin". I realized that the the screw of my bow looked very different from James' screw with its distinctive long conical end that is shown in the same book but I was not sure what features of a screw would point towards a certain school. What exactly is it that you feel is German in that bow? I feel that the thickness and darkness of the ebony layer above the headplate does not look very German, for example (rather English). Also, the stick is rather oval than round in the middle. Will in any case let you know the qualified opinions once I have them.

I do have another set of bows that you two might find interesting...

I'm a bit lost with them at the moment. One is a certified Sartory, the other one a copy (why? do you feel like discussing this?), the last one unknown. Has not seen an expert yet. The unknown one looks at least better to me on the whole than the copy in terms of workmanship but I believe its not real either. Unfortunately, the button of the certified one is not original so I am missing important "dataset" when comparing the three bows.

[fiddlecollector]

The screw on your original bow (the Tubbs Copy??)looks a bit like the type used by Claude Thomassin.But makers seem to use different styles ,probably whatever was available to them at the time.Looking at the screw is not a very good way of trying to identify a maker.

Heres some pics of Sartory adjusters.

[geigen]

Great selection! Thanks.

Your comment probably means that adjusters and screws may differ quite a bit even if they're from the same maker (?). At least to me, the four adjusters with their screws you posted look quite different, except for the small conical end, perhaps.

[fiddlecollector]

Great selection! Thanks.

Your comment probably means that adjusters and screws may differ quite a bit even if they're from the same maker (?). At least to me, the four adjusters with their screws you posted look quite different, except for the small conical end, perhaps.

Yes thats right.Dont take much notice of the end part of the screw.These were often threaded quite a bit further towards the end ,which is why you can sometimes see the remains of the thread. They are often filed and polished to make sure the adjuster turns smoothly and to make up for any discrepancies in the position of the stick mortice and the distance of the mortice from the end of the stick.(as you dont want the threaded part in the adjuster hole on the head side of the mortice.)

[Ratcliffiddles]

Anne,

Any pictures of the heads of your 3 bows?

Certainly the second one (copy?) looks very Sartory-like on the frog, even more so than the certified one above it, whereas the screw looks wrong, and virtually brand new.

Bring one the heads!

[geigen]

Well, the certified one is #2 (with the adjuster being not original). #1 is an uncertified one from which I don't know if it is original. #3 is a copy (from which I was pretty sure it was original earlier). When I look at the three bows together they all look similarly good to me... I even feel #3 looks better than #1 at least the head

Now here are the heads #1-3 and adjusters of #1 and #3

[Ratcliffiddles]

I understood incorrectly that the first one was certified.

With the head pictures, I would say the one that says typical "Sartory" to me is No 1. But there is so much more than profiles to assess authenticity. The head chamfers on the other two aren't as typical.