Latest Skinner eBay Auction

[germanbeckham]

Does anyone know if Skinner puts fake labels into instruments? I ask this because one I saw a Laberte workshop fiddle running a few months ago and it was only "projected" to fetch around $350-$450, or thereabouts. Also, it seems that some are polished and left in un-set-up condition to look like the instrument will be more of a looker after being cleaned up.

There are other things that just get my underwear in a twist, too, I suppose.

Anyway I would like your input on these fiddles:

A Prague Juzek (which looks unlike any verified Prague Juzek I have ever seen. I think I may have seen one like this (that also purported being a Prague fiddle) on eBay before, run by some random seller, but I still have great doubts about this fiddle.);

A violin labelled "Made by Frank Sterbach";

An instrument ticketed Alcide Goubad (Perhaps from the Brevete shop?);

A fiddle ticketed Joseph Metzner;

A violin labelled Ernst Kreusler;

And a cello supposedly from the Antonio Ramirez line. If I'm not mistaken these were made in China and were supposedly an excellent value at around $1000-$1500.

I am really intrigued by these fiddles:

Another Ernst Kreusler fiddle, and ...

A violin from the Herman Lowendall workshop in Berlin, perhaps.

Thanks for any analysis, guys!

[brokenbow]

I have a Ernst Kreusler labeled and branded violin that is identical to the first mentioned violin 350103893647. The antiquing and simulated wear are identical--they could be twins. The top is off of mine right now, and is branded as made in Dresden and the label states made in Germany. I have seen on E. Kresuler stamped made in Czec. My instrument has the bass bar carved from the top instead of fitted and glued.

[germanbeckham]

I have a Ernst Kreusler labeled and branded violin that is identical to the first mentioned violin 350103893647. The antiquing and simulated wear are identical--they could be twins. The top is off of mine right now, and is branded as made in Dresden and the label states made in Germany. I have seen on E. Kresuler stamped made in Czec. My instrument has the bass bar carved from the top instead of fitted and glued.

Is it a quality fiddle? Worth at least $1000k, perhaps? What about the other Ernst Kreusler fiddle.

[Brad Dorsey]

"Does anyone know if Skinner puts fake labels into instruments? I ask this because one I saw a Laberte workshop fiddle running a few months ago and it was only "projected" to fetch around $350-$450, or thereabouts."

I have been attending the Skinner instrument auctions for almost twenty years and I can't imagine that they would put fake labels in instruments. But many of the instrument they sell come to them with fake labels already in them. As explained in the terms of sale, if the Skinner catalog says "Stradivari" it means they believe he made it, but if it says "labeled Stradivari" they don't believe he did.

Although Laberte's high grade instruments are quite nice, the workshop also produced many lower grade violins that are only worth $350 to $450 at auction. And another factor that gives Skinner an incentive to estimate on the low side is that they will usually pass a lot if it doesn't get a bid of half of the low estimate. They they only get a commission if the lot sells.

[Janito]

I find the Skinner Live Ebay auctions very off-putting.

The minimalist descriptions and photography of the items leave me rather cold.

I guess that would be OK if the expectation is that the item can/will be viewed in person by interested parties.

[Brad Dorsey]

"I find the Skinner Live Ebay auctions very off-putting.

The minimalist descriptions and photography of the items leave me rather cold."

I agree. I think you'd have to be crazy to bid in the Skinner Live Ebay auctions based solely on the Ebay descriptions. I think you can request a condition report from Skinner on any of the lots, but everything is sold "as is" regardless of the correctness or completeness of the condition reports or the minimal descriptions.

And notice that our own Pahdah Hound does very well by attending the Skinner auctions, buying violins, repairing and setting them up as needed, and re-selling them on Ebay with good descriptions and pictures and a money-back guarantee. It would be interesting to compare the prices that Pahdah Hound gets for violins on Ebay with the prices Skinner got for those same violins.

I saw him there today bidding up a storm. How many did you get, Jesse?

[Brad Dorsey]

"Is it a quality fiddle? Worth at least $1000k, perhaps?"

It's not worth $1000k. $1000k is $1,000,000.

[germanbeckham]

Sorry, I meant to say "$1000".

[pahdah_hound]

Hi Folks,

I was at Skinner and bought a full carload. Many of them will be visiting Brad tomorrow for a while. It seems as if the violins highlighted for this thread were many of the ones I bought. Among the violins I purchased were the Prague Juzek (just fine), both of the Kreuslers and several of the others mentioned. I was happy with my 20+ lots. I also got two good books, a couple of violin bows, a cello and two cello bows for a friend, and well, a carload of stuff.

I find Skinner a great place to locate good inventory in one weekend with limited buying expenses. To buy as many violins as I did Sunday would take weeks of traveling and a huge time investment. In one weekend, I was able to buy enough violins to last me through the Christmas season. Not only the stuff at the auction itself but all the other things I bought from the dealers at the hotel. I have a system that works for me, but I would not advise a person looking to buy one violin for themselves to try the auction scene. They would be better off buying from a seller with a reputation and a return policy. Even the most experienced dealers get burned from time to time. In fact, I will soon be listing a nice, pre-war Roth with a patched back soundpost crack that one of Europe's largest dealers bought by accident. He will lose money, but someone will get a nice, but damaged Roth for a small fraction of its full value. Of course, I will fully disclose the damage and repair.

I am fairly certain that none of the major auctions put in fake labels. I am also certain that many of the violins sold at major auctions have fake labels. Even many of the attributions, ascriptions, and certifications by known experts are inaccurate or questioned.

It is alsways a fun weekend. One of the plusses to being an eBay violin dealer.

Jesse

[Bob A]

I would be surprised at any instrument with an integral bass bar being worth more than $1000.

I was myself horrified to see a viola with a Didier label opened up to expose an integral bar, as well as fake corner blocks. My luthier went ahead anr reglued the top, which was cracked from stem to stern (though not mentioned by the ebay seller, the foul swine), assuring me that the outcome would still be a decent student instrument, better than a new Chinese, and worth the price I paid for the total package, including repair and setup. Well, it ain't bad, but it's far from great.

[Ed Shillitoe]

I was happy with my 20+ lots.

Jesse

Hi Jesse:

This will bring you up to number 1000 won't it? Anything special planned?

Or will you just vanish at number 999 like another member of the board did!

Ed

[pahdah_hound]

Hi Jesse:

This will bring you up to number 1000 won't it? Anything special planned?

Or will you just vanish at number 999 like another member of the board did!

Ed

Hi Ed,

I have found that only about 1/2 of the buyers leave feedback. I don't chase it or request it so I would imagine the number might be much higher if I did. My estimates have the number nearing 1500 which is about 200 or so a year since I caught the bug. Of course, not all of the 981 feedback is from violin sales. I buy stuff and have sold other things, so some of the feedback is from purchases and sales of non-violin items.

I think I'll be hanging out for a while....

Jesse

[Jeffrey Holmes]

I would be surprised at any instrument with an integral bass bar being worth more than $1000.

Be ready to be surprised Bob. Giorgio Gatti of Turin carved in his bars, though most have been changed over by now. I've seen his instruments offered from $45K to $75K.

For those who attended Skinner's and/or Christie's: What did you all think of the auction (cataloging, offerings, prices realized, etc.)? Just curious....

[Ratcliffiddles]

I would be surprised at any instrument with an integral bass bar being worth more than $1000.

To follow on Jeffrey's comment, I recently restored one of the finest Kennedy cello's around with original integral bass bar, and no movement of the table discernable, so I left it well alone.

[germanbeckham]

Do you guys think this is a Farny made from 1900-1902? I have heard that is when they were quality, then that Wurlitzer started making fiddles in Germany for over forty years afterwards, under that name, with the ticket still stating "Paris, France".

After looking up "henri farny violin" on the amazing search engine, google, the name "Farny Reginald Wurlitzer" came up. It was in

Encyclopedia Britannica. I thought that perhaps the family combined his name with Rudolph Henry, who was with the company since 1894, and gave it a French twist.

Can we re-title this and make it the official auction-checking thread for less knowledgeable people such as myself? I think that this would be brilliant, and that it would help us learn more about spotting decent fiddles.

[Josh Henry]

Do you guys think this is a Farny made from 1900-1902? I have heard that is when they were quality, then that Wurlitzer started making fiddles in Germany for over forty years afterwards, under that name, with the ticket still stating "Paris, France".

I've sold several Farny violins over the years, and they were nicely made and good sounding 'trade' French instruments. This violin looks so-so... and the two bows look like they were made of plastic. Is the violin an actual Farny? I don't know, but the purfling that you can see in photo 11 looks Saxon (German) to me. However, the deal killer for me would be that soundpost crack.

[Mark Crabtree]

I've sold several Farny violins over the years, and they were nicely made and good sounding 'trade' French instruments. This violin looks so-so... and the two bows look like they were made of plastic. Is the violin an actual Farny? I don't know, but the purfling that you can see in photo 11 looks Saxon (German) to me. However, the deal killer for me would be that soundpost crack.

Do you happen to have pictures of any of the Farny violins you had? I saw one this summer that belonged to a friend and have been curious about them. His seemed like a decent fiddle and at a glance looked very much like another turn of the century Mirecourt violin that I own.

After looking up "henri farny violin" on the amazing search engine, google, the name "Farny Reginald Wurlitzer" came up. It was in

Encyclopedia Britannica. I thought that perhaps the family combined his name with Rudolph Henry, who was with the company since 1894, and gave it a French twist.

Good find. From the little information I can find it seems clear that this was a Wurlitzer trade name at some point, so perhaps was from the beginning. The earlier Mirecourt ones seem pretty nice.

[piaffe]

Be ready to be surprised Bob. Giorgio Gatti of Turin carved in his bars, though most have been changed over by now. I've seen his instruments offered from $45K to $75K.

For those who attended Skinner's and/or Christie's: What did you all think of the auction (cataloging, offerings, prices realized, etc.)? Just curious....

Jeffrey,

I attended the Christie's auction mainly because I came to NY to visit a friend. As you likely know, they had a boatload of guitars, the first 49 -CF Martins- sold tax-free for a charity. The guitars took front and center stage; after they were sold, the room really cleared out.

It seemed like some of the violin prices were erratic -some sold for quite a bit more than expected, while others sold for way less. I happened to benefit from one of those violins that sold for way less. I wasn't really planning on buying a violin! These things just happen.

The Thumhard cello was pretty nice; I played it and really liked it. The Heesom had a lot of condition issues, I thought. There were only 2 other cellos as I recall, and they were nothing to write home about.

[Leticia Raquel]

I'm curious about the label on the Juzek. It says "Made in Czechoslovakia... 1910" I thought the "made in" requirement came later or did some use this before it was included in the act? And I don't remember the exact year it changed but wasn't Czechoslovakia still called Bohemia then?

I definitely don't have the knowledge to judge whether or not this is the work of Juzek but the label looked like a red flag to me. Is this why Skinner listed it as "labeled John Juzek" or am I totally off the mark?

[Brad Dorsey]

"And I don't remember the exact year it changed but wasn't Czechoslovakia still called Bohemia then?"

There has been some discussion of this here in the past, because a number of early Juzeks are labeled as "Made in Czechoslovakia," but they are dated before the nation of Czechoslovakia was formed from Bohemia, Moravia and Slovakia in the aftermath of World War 1. Some people have proposed that these instruments were actually made in the 1920s but were dated earlier. It's also possible that there was a region called Czechoslovakia before the nation of Czechoslovakia was founded.

"I definitely don't have the knowledge to judge whether or not this is the work of Juzek but the label looked like a red flag to me. Is this why Skinner listed it as "labeled John Juzek" or am I totally off the mark?

This has also been discussed here in the past. The consensus seems to be that a violin maker named John Juzek never existed, and that John Juzek was (and still is) a trade name used in various grades of instruments made in various Czech and German workshops and imported in large numbers into the United States by Metropolitan Music Company.

Jesse dropped this violin off yesterday for me to set up. The label looks legitimate to me in the sense that I believe that this label has always been in this violin. But the violin was not made by John Juzek -- it was made by anonymous production workers -- hence Skinner described it as "labeled John Juzek."

[germanbeckham]

"And I don't remember the exact year it changed but wasn't Czechoslovakia still called Bohemia then?"

There has been some discussion of this here in the past, because a number of early Juzeks are labeled as "Made in Czechoslovakia," but they are dated before the nation of Czechoslovakia was formed from Bohemia, Moravia and Slovakia in the aftermath of World War 1. Some people have proposed that these instruments were actually made in the 1920s but were dated earlier. It's also possible that there was a region called Czechoslovakia before the nation of Czechoslovakia was founded.

"I definitely don't have the knowledge to judge whether or not this is the work of Juzek but the label looked like a red flag to me. Is this why Skinner listed it as "labeled John Juzek" or am I totally off the mark?

This has also been discussed here in the past. The consensus seems to be that a violin maker named John Juzek never existed, and that John Juzek was (and still is) a trade name used in various grades of instruments made in various Czech and German workshops and imported in large numbers into the United States by Metropolitan Music Company.

Jesse dropped this violin off yesterday for me to set up. The label looks legitimate to me in the sense that I believe that this label has always been in this violin. But the violin was not made by John Juzek -- it was made by anonymous production workers -- hence Skinner described it as "labeled John Juzek."

I definitely believe that these violins were pre-dated, and that they were also among the first Juzek instruments. If I'm not mistaken, they are usually among the best Czech Juzek's and vary more than the later instruments, and usually have different varnish than later Juzek's. It is often said that wood was often specially chosen, and the better instruments often had wood used from old Bohemian and Prague? church doors. I think that much is true, and, because of that, I believe that Juzek did exist.

How do you know for sure that the violin wasn't made by Juzek, if you are not sure whether he existed or not? Or was it just described as such because no one is sure he existed?

I think I will make this the official violin-checker thread. It would be very helpful, and we could learn much from the ensuing discussions.

[bean_fidhleir]

I'm curious about the label on the Juzek. It says "Made in Czechoslovakia... 1910" I thought the "made in" requirement came later or did some use this before it was included in the act? And I don't remember the exact year it changed but wasn't Czechoslovakia still called Bohemia then?

I think the "made in" requirement started in 1891, but someone else will know for sure.

The country Czechoslovakia was made by gluing together Bohemia (Böhmen in German, Čechy in Česky), Moravia, and Slovakia. I shouldn't think anyone would have made a label saying "Czechoslovakia" in 1910 though, since I don't even think the country was contemplated by anyone at that point - the Böhmer Germans were very happy with their cultural ties to Germany, Switzerland, and Austria thankyousoverymuch! They really had little in common with the Slovaks - the creation of a Slavic Czechoslovakia out of 2 German-dominant and 1 Slavic-dominant mini-countries was punishment for WW1, the same way the handing over of the Südtirol to Italy was.

And a Česky nationalist would probably have baulked at using Polish spelling (Czech) anyway. So probably the label was backdated, whether or not to correspond with the actual birthdate of the fiddle.

[Leticia Raquel]

Thank you all for the clarifications. As someone who played the violin as a child and only started playing again last month, I have much to learn!

I have everyone here at Maestronet to thank for fueling my desire enough to do something about my 30 year hiatus. I am grateful there are so many of you that are so willing to share your knowledge even with those of us that only have appreciation to offer in return.

[dan gall]

On 10/16/2008 at 8:32 AM, piaffe said:

The Thumhard cello was pretty nice; I played it and really liked it. The Heesom had a lot of condition issues, I thought. There were only 2 other cellos as I recall, and they were nothing to write home about.

I suspect that we now own the Heesom.  It had a top seam issue under the fingerboard that finished working loose and which David Brobst repaired capably.  It now sounds like this:

youtu.be/a61ZDRPPwT8