olive oil ......varnish

[Magnus Nedregard]

oops wrong button

[fiddlecollector]

Interesting, what are you sources for that information? Since you don't necessarily need oil at all in tempera, I can't see what would be the purpose of olive oil in egg tempera? The only effect of that would be to ruin the otherwise excellent drying properties of egg tempera.

The statement "olive oil was probably the most common painting medium" is news to me, and it will take some hefty argumentation to make me believe that!

Hi Magnus, i thought it was common knowledge!

[Magnus Nedregard]

Ok ok ok, I surrender, they painted with olive oil and just waited "ages" for it to dry, and although it never did, they went on with that and they did not stop, oh no, and they varnished violins with it too, you have convinced me!

[fiddlecollector]

Ok ok ok, I surrender, they painted with olive oil and just waited "ages" for it to dry, and although it never did, they went on with that and they did not stop, oh no, and they varnished violins with it too, you have convinced me!

Magnus, you did ask, it was the most common oil binder for pigments during the renaissance.If you dont believe me read some books. Who mentioned its use on violins???

Heres one quote ,if you look at Art history books im sure you could find many more.

""Oil paint on the other hand, uses oil as a binder. In Italy during the time of the Renaissance, the most commonly used oil for this purpose was olive oil as it was inexpensive and readily available. However, it had an excessive drying time that was especially tedious in the case of figures. So tedious in fact that it lead a German monk by the name of Theophilus to warn against the use of oil paint recipes including olive oil in the 12th century in his book Schoedula Diversarum Artium.

Among other techniques was the use of a drying oil as a varnish on paintings, such as the technique referred to by 5th century medical writer Aetius Amidenus. In the 8th century, the Japanese mixed lead with Perilla oil, and in the 14th century, Italian artist Cennino Cennini used a painting technique that involved covering tempera paintings with light oily layers.

According to Le vite de piu eccelenti pittori, scultori e architetori, Firenze, 1550 (Lives of the Artists) by Giorgio Vasari, the oil painting technique was invented –or rather reinvented- in Europe by the well-known Flemish artist Jan van Eyck in or around 1410. He was not the first to use oil painting, but rather was the first to make use of a stable varnishing utilizing siccative oil, namely linseed. Walnut oil and poppy seed oil were also in use, but were not as quick-drying as linseed oil. These oils allowed for much faster drying of paint on canvas under the sun. Jan van Eyck kept his secret until about 1440, a year before his death.""

[Magnus Nedregard]

I guess it depends a bit which art history book you read. I am sure there has been a lot of experimenting going on, also with olive oil.

The body of evidence that we have in the actual paintings strongly suggest that egg and casein were the most common mediums before oil paint became more widespread. They worked very well, and are extremely stable mediums. The advantage that made linseed oil very popular later on was that it gave greater depth and strength to the colours and could be worked for a long time, whereas in tempera you had to be fairly quick...

[fiddlecollector]

I guess it depends a bit which art history book you read. I am sure there has been a lot of experimenting going on, also with olive oil.

The body of evidence that we have in the actual paintings strongly suggest that egg and casein were the most common mediums before oil paint became more widespread. They worked very well, and are extremely stable mediums. The advantage that made linseed oil very popular later on was that it gave greater depth and strength to the colours and could be worked for a long time, whereas in tempera you had to be fairly quick...

Magnus, im just quoting what i read, i subscribe to a National gallery technical magazine and have read much recent research.

What i really think is that olive oil was used until something more reliable came along ,i.e linseed,poppy oil ,walnut,etc... Im not advocating its use in any way.Ive messed with it and it was basically useless for use in straight forward ways,unless you have 40 years to wait for it to dry.One oil i like is hemp ,which doesnt get mentioned much.

There were many variations of tempera,some contained oil others were just coated with oil to enhance the colours,etc..

Dont forget encaustic painting which was very widespread in the middle ages.You can do some interesting things with wax.

[Wm. Johnston]

My take on this is that before van Eck olive oil was the oil painting medium in the sense that people painted with egg yolk instead.

When you read these old art texts (with the exception of Vasari) you need to keep in mind that they were probably written by the Herron-Allens of their day. Take their writings with a grain of salt. How many Cennini paintings exist in order to see if he really knew what he was talking about? The answer is quite small.

I'm sure someone at some time painted in olive oil but painters at this time were craftmen more than artitists, they had to be practical.

[Oded Kishony]

Hemp was grown and processed for making rope and canvas-it makes a very strong durable canvas which was often used on sailing ships. So that means that there was lots of hemp seeds around from which to extract the oil. But alas the research does not support hemp seed oil as the medium. Perhaps hemp seed oil was used mostly medicinally?

Oded

[Darren Molnar]

Hemp was grown and processed for making rope and canvas-it makes a very strong durable canvas which was often used on sailing ships. So that means that there was lots of hemp seeds around from which to extract the oil. But alas the research does not support hemp seed oil as the medium. Perhaps hemp seed oil was used mostly medicianly?

Oded

'Giggle',, I can picture the Testore's hanging out in the courtyard, passing the doobie around. Not so much Strad, seems too straight laced, maybe.

[FredN]

We better include grapeseed oil as a possible historical drying oil which is next to linseed oil in amount of unsaturates. Interesting there is so little mentioned of this soource for a drying oil. Is it possible that its production is a recent event? fredn

[joerobson]

We better include grapeseed oil as a possible historical drying oil which is next to linseed oil in amount of unsaturates. Interesting there is so little mentioned of this soource for a drying oil. Is it possible that its production is a recent event? fredn

Hi folks,

Hemp, grape seed, poppy-oil, castor-oil, walnut oil all are classed as semi-drying oils and have long histories in the paint and varnish trade. BUT. They were generally used as linseed oil substitues.

I have tried them all and my prejudice is obvious.

On we go,

Joe

"Chance favors the prepared mind." Edward Barnsley

[Wolfjk]

Hemp was grown and processed for making rope and canvas-it makes a very strong durable canvas which was often used on sailing ships. So that means that there was lots of hemp seeds around from which to extract the oil. But alas the research does not support hemp seed oil as the medium. Perhaps hemp seed oil was used mostly medicinally?

Oded

Hi Oded,

The hemp grown for its fibre doe not produce seeds. It is planted very close to grow a long stem.

After harvesting some plants on the edge of the field left to produce next years seeds.

[MagnaWootty]

I've solidified it before on a dinner plate flat layer, against a fan blowing it, but it took FREAKING AGES!!! months, I forgot about it, then I suddenly looked at the plate and shockingly enough it actually developed a big wrinkly skin on the top! but it does actually work like linseed oil just 100000 times slower.  so if some environmental fluke happens, it can actually go hard! or get a skin at least.

[LCF]

15 years is a long time between messages! It's interesting to read what those well informed people said. 

 I used to cook with good quality macadamia oil, very tasty. It has nearly 60% oleic acid  (same consituent as in olive oil) plus some palmitoleic which is another monounsaturate, and a tiny bit of linoleic and linolenic acids which are the classic drying oils. Olive oil usually contains much more linoleic acid than macadamia.

At one time I had put a good splash of macadamia oil in a stainless frypan and turned it on low to heat up but got distracted. It didn't burn but stayed hot for a long time and when I got back to it it had turned into a tough orange film. It was so tough that alcohol, acetone and turps would not remove it. I had to scrub it off with a stainless scourer using a paste cleaner. 

So, you can make a varnish from the most unlikely vegetable oils if you cook them for a long time and hot enough but not so hot that they burn.  Lipoperoxidation is the process you need to get going to start the cascade which turns oils into resinous polymers aka varnish. You need plenty of heat, oxygen, and/or the presence of certain metals or catalysts like steel for instance, to kick it off.

 

[joerobson]

Back in the dark ages, I was involved in establishing a sustainable Cuban Mahogany operation on the island of Palau: Blue Moon Exotic Wood. The traditional water craft were treated with a tradition based coconut oil sealant. So, if you know how, then you might be able to make it work.

on we go,

Joe

[LCF]

4 hours ago, joerobson said:

Back in the dark ages, I was involved in establishing a sustainable Cuban Mahogany operation on the island of Palau: Blue Moon Exotic Wood. The traditional water craft were treated with a tradition based coconut oil sealant. So, if you know how, then you might be able to make it work.

on we go,

Joe

An interesting story.

 

I'll hazard a guess that coconut oil would not form any sort of varnish as we know it since it consists mostly of fully saturated fatty acids but it would certainly waterproof the timbers of a boat similarly to coconuts which can float for up to a year in the ocean to colonise distant islands.

 

Q: What to take with you to live on a desert island?

A: A ladder. 

[uguntde]

On 10/11/2008 at 12:57 AM, Melvin Goldsmith said:

No big ideas or sudden findings here.....Just throwing something into the mix.

Have any members here tried and to make a useable varnish with olive oil instead of the well known drying oils?....what happened?

As far as I am aware by reputation only, olive oil is classified as a non drying oil which would be a dead loss in varnish . ( although it was probably more common in old Italy than linseed oil or walnut oil).

Here is the story that leads to this post. A while back one of my luthier friends laughed at me using expensive honing oil on my sharpening stones and said he uses olive oil. So....it came to pass that I used cheap olive oil for honing. After a few years I got the feeling that the olive oil was thickening on the stones, especially on India stones. As it turns out the olive oil seems now to be set in the stones and thickening or even setting. It seemed lodged in the stone emerging like honey and later more like toffee. ( please remember this is a post about olve oil and not stones)) ..so this got me curious as to whether olive oil can exhibit drying capabilities.... which might be worth looking at ...maybe...

Note that the olive oil I used was cheap refined cooking oil....It was from a major store but olive oil is notorious for not being what it claims to be. ......

.....So I guess the question is.....has anyone ever had success or heard of success with an olive oil varnish?

Olive oil lacks enough alpha-linoleic acid with several double bongs to form linkages. And if it tatstes good there is too much stuff in it.

[LCF]

1 hour ago, uguntde said:

Olive oil lacks enough alpha-linoleic acid with several double bongs to form linkages. 

Neither does macadamia oil, in fact much less ALA, but see my experience above. Analysis of some mediæval art works also shows oxidised oleic acid. Given enough time or the right conditions just the one 'double bong' seems to be enough. 

 

 

[uguntde]

On 7/9/2024 at 10:53 PM, LCF said:

Neither does macadamia oil, in fact much less ALA, but see my experience above. Analysis of some mediæval art works also shows oxidised oleic acid. Given enough time or the right conditions just the one 'double bong' seems to be enough. 

 

 

You can't get cross linking, as a fatty acid with one double bond can make only one link.

[Claudio Rampini]

On 10/13/2008 at 2:26 AM, Oded Kishony said:

Italians are nuts about olive oil. I witnessed hours long, heated discussions about which is the very best live oil. Really fresh, first press Tuscan olive oil is unbeatable for purity, clarity and flavor

Oded

This is a very old topic, but it's interesting to read something (wrong?), about our products. What about the oil from Liguria, Puglia, Umbria, Lazio, Sardegna, Campania, Toscana, Abruzzo, etc etc? all of these olive oils have an excellence degree, like the wine, but there are differences from the Chianti, Barolo, Etna, Barbaresco, Amarone della Valpolicella and others. No one here can state that a wine si better than other, the same for the olive oil. When the wine or the olive oil is well done, of course.

 

[David Burgess]

2 hours ago, Claudio Rampini said:

This is a very old topic, but it's interesting to read something (wrong?), about our products. What about the oil from Liguria, Puglia, Umbria, Lazio, Sardegna, Campania, Toscana, Abruzzo, etc etc? all of these olive oils have an excellence degree, like the wine, but there are differences from the Chianti, Barolo, Etna, Barbaresco, Amarone della Valpolicella and others. No one here can state that a wine si better than other, the same for the olive oil. When the wine or the olive oil is well done, of course.

 

California wine is better.

[Claudio Rampini]

4 minutes ago, David Burgess said:

California wine is better.

Better or not, I was amazed by the californian wine, it tastes good.

[Dr. Ludwig]

2 hours ago, Claudio Rampini said:

Better or not, I was amazed by the californian wine, it tastes good.

With the extreme temperatures the ranges of good olive oil and good grapes for wine will surely move north. This may eventually be true of tone woods, would it not? Enjoying the wines now but no doubt they'll be easier to move.