Soundpost facts?

[polkat]

For hundreds of years luthiers have been cutting and fitting soundposts in violins, and one thing we have learned is that while there is an accepted base setting position, each violin is unique and may require a post position different from others. But in all those years have we learned anything about what rough tonal changes to expect from moving the post north, south, east, or west? I have seen some websites which state generally that one can get a brighter sound by moving this way, or a darker or louder sound by moving that way, and etc. Any truth to any of this?

[NewNewbie]

This might help.

The Strad Magazine April/08 "Sound Decisions" Guy Rabut

[Melvin Goldsmith]

For hundreds of years luthiers have been cutting and fitting soundposts in violins, and one thing we have learned is that while there is an accepted base setting position, each violin is unique and may require a post position different from others. But in all those years have we learned anything about what rough tonal changes to expect from moving the post north, south, east, or west? I have seen some websites which state generally that one can get a brighter sound by moving this way, or a darker or louder sound by moving that way, and etc. Any truth to any of this?

................................................................................

...........................

No, generally most of it is just wrong , folklore or heresay. post movements don't work on a continuum either.

[David Burgess]

I have seen some websites which state generally that one can get a brighter sound by moving this way, or a darker or louder sound by moving that way, and etc. Any truth to any of this?

I don't think so.

................................................................................

Post movements don't work on a continuum either.

I agree.

[Fellow]

For hundreds of years luthiers have been cutting and fitting soundposts in violins, and one thing we have learned is that while there is an accepted base setting position, each violin is unique and may require a post position different from others. But in all those years have we learned anything about what rough tonal changes to expect from moving the post north, south, east, or west? I have seen some websites which state generally that one can get a brighter sound by moving this way, or a darker or louder sound by moving that way, and etc. Any truth to any of this?

+++++++++++++++++++++++

The best law I know is " trial and error" Who can make it any more simpler.

My local luthier has even better idea : Ask the customer, " Is this way better now? (avoiding saying south or north) "

[Anders Buen]

For hundreds of years luthiers have been cutting and fitting soundposts in violins, and one thing we have learned is that while there is an accepted base setting position, each violin is unique and may require a post position different from others. But in all those years have we learned anything about what rough tonal changes to expect from moving the post north, south, east, or west? I have seen some websites which state generally that one can get a brighter sound by moving this way, or a darker or louder sound by moving that way, and etc. Any truth to any of this?

I do not know. But in general moves east will give more low frequency output. South in general will give a "softer" sound. Otherwise the efficiency of the e-string fundamentals seems to be more delicate. The only way I know of to determine the right position is by movements until you get the best you can get out of the instrument.

On hardangers in my family the post is set far south, even in thin instruments. The reason might be the enhanced "ring" form the understrings. I guess you would get more ring in a violin too.

[Melvin Goldsmith]

+++++++++++++++++++++++

The best law I know is " trial and error" Who can make it any more simpler.

My local luthier has even better idea : Ask the customer, " Is this way better now? (avoiding saying south or north) "

.......................................................................

I don't believe in trial and error either!....

On a good violin in my opinion there is very little leeway for where the post should be when it comes to optimal adjustment. That's about as far as I'd like to go when it comes to my own personal methods of placing a post.

[NewNewbie]

.......................................................................

I don't believe in trial and error either!....

On a good violin in my opinion there is very little leeway for where the post should be when it comes to optimal adjustment. That's about as far as I'd like to go when it comes to my own personal methods of placing a post.

I agree too.

On a *bad* violin in my opinion there is *a lot of* leeway for where the post should be when it comes to optimal adjustment.

It's what makes 'good' good, and 'bad' bad.

[stradofear]

I wonder how many of us (including me) who have arrived at a method for quickly and precisely determining the post position and don't want to talk about it have developed the same method. I've been told by two people for whom I've done adjustments that the guys they used to go to before they moved near me run through the same steps as I do, which surprised me, and I know a third, personally. I believe all came to the same conclusion independently, and all think it's too good to give away.

[Jacob]

I think that fit and tightness are at least as important as lateral or longitudinal position (within reason). The optimal longitudinal position is probably influenced by the stiffness of the top (determined by either arching, or plate thickness and wood quality, or both). The effects obtained by lateral movement may very well be caused by the increase/decrease of tightness, which might be why a "continuum" cannot be observed for the effects of lateral or longitudinal repositioning. On the other hand, such a continuum might become evident when the above-named factors (fit and tightness, in relation to modeling and thickness) are used as references, rather than lateral or longitudinal position per se.

Unfortunately, without a perfect fit one might as well practice tossing cigarette buts into an empty beer can in a strong wind.

[Magnus Nedregard]

I agree, there are no recipes or general rules. (Except the very obvious ones; I take for granted that the fit, position and length are right).

However, certain things often affect other aspects with the sounds and response more than others, and I do use that as a sort of "mental model". For example tiny differences in the north-south position related to the bridge affects the way the E-string is damped a lot, and the east-west position has an influence on the bass side response. (But it's not a linear change, some people seem to believe the post is like the switches on an equalizer!) Some instruments are rather sensitive to post position, some are much less affected. I think you just have to able to evaluate sound and the mechanical properties of the instrument as a whole, to get anywhere.

[Craig Tucker]

Unfortunately, without a perfect fit one might as well practice tossing cigarette buts into an empty beer can in a strong wind.

A practice that I highly endorse...

guffaw!

[polkat]

Anders said.

"I do not know. But in general moves east will give more low frequency output. South in general will give a "softer" sound. Otherwise the efficiency of the e-string fundamentals seems to be more delicate. The only way I know of to determine the right position is by movements until you get the best you can get out of the instrument.

On hardangers in my family the post is set far south, even in thin instruments. The reason might be the enhanced "ring" form the understrings. I guess you would get more ring in a violin too."

So while most agree that there is no rational assumption about response to moving the post a certain way, there does seem to be some recognized movement responses (in general) as seen above. So such movements can be a rough directional guide on where to start?

[stradofear]

Anders said.

"I do not know. But in general moves east will give more low frequency output. South in general will give a "softer" sound. Otherwise the efficiency of the e-string fundamentals seems to be more delicate. The only way I know of to determine the right position is by movements until you get the best you can get out of the instrument.

On hardangers in my family the post is set far south, even in thin instruments. The reason might be the enhanced "ring" form the understrings. I guess you would get more ring in a violin too."

So while most agree that there is no rational assumption about response to moving the post a certain way, there does seem to be some recognized movement responses (in general) as seen above. So such movements can be a rough directional guide on where to start?

I don't see how you could possibly could have drawn the above conclusion as a consensus opinion when you have about ten subsequent people basically disagreeing with it!

[~ Ben Conover]

Before gluing the belly on, I make a pencil line to represent the position of the bridge feet, accross the nicks. I then measure out from the centre line depending on the width of the bridge I will use, and make another line to represent the edge of where the soundpost will go.

So after the belly is glued on, I can look inside the end pin hole and fit a post in exactly the area I had allocated.

After the post is in, I fit a bridge.

I don't move posts unless they need to be moved, and occasionaly move the bridge a little bit up or down.

So there's my 00.01 Euro

[Melvin Goldsmith]

Before gluing the belly on, I make a pencil line to represent the position of the bridge feet, accross the nicks. I then measure out from the centre line depending on the width of the bridge I will use, and make another line to represent the edge of where the soundpost will go.

So after the belly is glued on, I can look inside the end pin hole and fit a post in exactly the area I had allocated.

After the post is in, I fit a bridge.

I don't move posts unless they need to be moved, and occasionaly move the bridge a little bit up or down.

So there's my 00.01 Euro

................................................................................

........

Hi Ben

I think that's a neat idea to pencil mark the inside of the belly on one's own making. I do very similar to you except that I draw a line marking the back of the bridge feet and another marking the outer edge of the treb' foot.....something like that sure helps things make sense when positioning the post.

[colledge]

Before gluing the belly on, I make a pencil line to represent the position of the bridge feet, accross the nicks. I then measure out from the centre line depending on the width of the bridge I will use, and make another line to represent the edge of where the soundpost will go.

So after the belly is glued on, I can look inside the end pin hole and fit a post in exactly the area I had allocated.

After the post is in, I fit a bridge.

I don't move posts unless they need to be moved, and occasionaly move the bridge a little bit up or down.

So there's my 00.01 Euro

I do that also and it is helpful. I could maybe add that this line is easier to draw before the bass bar goes in.

[Craig Tucker]

I agree with those here who have mentioned that the sound post's fit - no matter where the post goes, must be perfect...

That said, I wonder how many makers consider whether the bridge is positioned correctly or not on the belly, despite what the ff hole nicks say, for that particular violin to start with, and what effect variables with that particular might have on the eventual "correct" sound post placement.

It's something to think about, particularly with difficult violins, where a "correct" placement seems not to really exist. There are times when "good enough" seems to be the best or only available option...

I'm asking this because it is a problem that I've been considering for a while now, and I have come across a method that I use that places the ff hole nicks based on a geometry that only incidentally considers the string length as correct.

In other words, I am considering the possibility that you can determin the proper N/S and E/W coordinates for the bridge (and, incidentally, the soundpost) - after the top plate has been carved and thicknessed but before it has been glued on.

Before I embarass myself, does anybody else do something along these lines?

After that, the general rule I rely on is this;

soundpost the thickness of the top behind the treble foot of the bridge, with the center line of the bridge leg going through the center line of the sound post.

Usually, the final post position winds up reasonably close to this position.

Further South will sweeten the tone, but has a slight lack of power as a result, and visa versa. 'Rule of thumb' East and West corrections are a bit more elusive.

[Magnus Nedregard]

The exact bridge placement is a very interesting subject. In some cases really tiny changes to the bridge's placement, can make a great difference on an instruments' sound, and there seems to be an optimum for every instrument. I do move the bridges around on instruments that have sound issues, but the movements seldom exceed 0,5 mm I think. Still, these tiny adjustments often make greater differences than most changes you can do to the post...

[Wm. Johnston]

I usually set the post in the location where the physical fit is the best. Then move the e-string bridge foot a little in each direction to find it's sweet spot, and maybe try fitting the post a little tighter or looser. I'm much more likely to try improving the tone of the violin through bridge tweeking, tailpiece tinkering, and slight neck reshaping than soundpost tweeking.

[~ Ben Conover]

To cut a post from a length I use a very thin edged scraper knife made from an old hack saw blade.

I roll the post under the pressure of the knife and after 20 turns it comes away clean.

When fitting a post I use a fine swiss file laid flat on the bench, I drag the end of the post across the file, whislt keeping a beady eye on it's orientation.

After the post fits, I lick each end to raise the grain, which has the added benefit of cancelling out any hint of rounding that may have been incured in the fitting process.

Then I applay a miniscule amount of chalk to the ends of the post.

So, after the fit, lick, and chalk, the post does not twist on axis.

The tightness of the post is also important.

I make it not too loose and never too tight.

If it fits well, and it's in the right place, then it fits.

[polkat]

Actually, the only consensus opinion I've been able to see is that there isn't one, but a few responders have noticed a...perhaps saying a specific or repeatable response in tone is too strong, when moving the post (or the bridge) in different directions. I realize that experience (and perhaps a bit of luck) helps in this chore, and it's beyond me to suggest any working rule of thumb. Just wanted to see what they more experienced here might know.

Also, I mark my unglued plates for post position as others here do, usually moving the post by the same distance as the belly thickness, as I've read here and elsewhere that it helps as a beginning point. But thinking about it, why the plate thickness? Is there a specific theory in this?

[Wm. Johnston]

But thinking about it, why the plate thickness? Is there a specific theory in this?

If there is then it can/will probably be shown to be wrong or not useful. Also since most tops are ~3mm thick in that region then that gives just about the same starting point for the post in any violin! Seems to me that the arching and wood thickness in the lower bout within say two inches of the post would be much more important for the posts' position then the tiny amount of wood between it and the bridge foot.

[Melvin Goldsmith]

With post fitting it is very important to factor out the variables. Personally I'd never move a post on a fiddle of value without reducing string tension. ......Reducing string tension and re applying it will have an effect on tone...this must be factored in to the general consideration.( over a day or so) That's why I I don't do last minute adjustments

Another very important thing to consider is tuning......Instruments generally sound far better when tuned correctly.............only ever evaluate an instrument when it is perfecly in tune.

[baroquecello]

"That said, I wonder how many makers consider whether the bridge is positioned correctly or not on the belly, despite what the ff hole nicks say, for that particular violin to start with, and what effect variables with that particular might have on the eventual "correct" sound post placement."

Probably you guys find me an idiot musician who knows nothing of making instruments, but look at paintings, etchings, engravings and even carved models on organs (or original instruments in original setup, the Freiberg Organ had some real, formerly played 16th cenntury instruments held by angels as decoration, interestingly enough with steel strings as well!) from the 17th and 18th centuries, personally I've a hard time finding any picture where the bridge is placed between the f hole nicks. Which to me raises the question wether that standard position between nicks was the one intended by all makers. (Not even Vivaldi has his bridge there...) Or were all painters idiots? Great source for violin iconography with hundreds of paintings etc, categorised on basis of provenance and century here: http://violadabraccio.com/violin.pictures/

Apart from that, I've played on a baroque cello which worked excellently with the sound post not below but above the bridge foot. What I'm concerned that means there is not one ideal spot. That said, my experiences with my own celli and some of others concur with what is quoted below though. Instruments which can have the sound post close to the bridge foot without sounding shrill are usually the best ones, since they generally have a better string response and (maybe because of that, since it makes bowing closer to the bridge easier?) mostly are capable of playing louder/ have a wider dynamic range than those that need the post to be further away. A post further away might cure a shrill sounding a string, but will probably make the sound hollow (loose power) and make it harder to bow close to the bridge with good result. Setting the sound post further away from the centre of the instrument frees up the bass side, allows it to vibrate more (or at different pitch? I dunno, you are the experts here), which on some instruments can be good and on others can result in bad lower string response and huge wolfes (like on my modern cello).

Allthough I'm sure there are many exceptions, based on the small experience I have, I would tend to call those things rules of the thumb. But then I'm only a silly musician with little experience when it comes to soundposts....

Please ignore my post if you feel it is compete nonsense.

"Further South will sweeten the tone, but has a slight lack of power as a result, and visa versa. 'Rule of thumb' East and West corrections are a bit more elusive."