Scrolls and tone?

[polkat]

Does the scroll effect the tone of a violin? Guitars, mandolins, and many other stringed instruments usually have a wide variety of tuning head designs, but it is very rare to see an instrument of the violin family without the common scroll, and I am wondering if (besides a showing of the luthier's artistic ability) the scroll was considered (rightly or wrongly) effective in tone production? How did the scroll come into use? Any opinions? Thanks!

[Jacob]

I think it goes something like this:

Violins were originally pub instruments (kind of like an antique version of a juke box). They were hung on the wall, and when you got drunk enough, you grabbed a violin off the wall and started playing.

Those days sheeps' heads were a top item on the menu (like today's pork pie, bangers 'n mash or fish 'n chips). So, to blend in with this, the scroll was conceived as a stylized version of ram's horns.

[~ Ben Conover]

Does the scroll effect the tone of a violin?

Not as far as I know, and I don't make my scrolls according to sound.

I just make scrolls that look as nice as I can make them look.

Personally, I like the scrolls of Amati and Strad, and fro character I love a good Magginni.

I'd love to learn to carve heads of lions, people, etc....

I think the scroll came into existence from the early viols, shoulder viols, marching band violas, etc.

Look at drawings of instruments by da Salo or Barak Norman for early examples.

The shape of the scroll initially imitates the shapes of nature, shells etc, and was then made more sophisticated with the use of geometry with spirals and porportion of the golden sections, Vitruvius etc.

Kevin coates book deals with scroll design in detail.

[David Burgess]

I think the mass of the pegbox and scroll has an influence on the sound, but not the shape, as far as I can determine.

Of course the shape will have an influence on effective mass, but that's splitting hairs.

[Oded Kishony]

I recently replaced boxwood pegs for ebony ones. There was a very BIG change in tone. The fiddle got brighter especially the E string. It took a lot of adjusting to get the sound right again.

I don't think there's always a big change but if you happen to get the neck/pegbox/scroll/fingerboard shaking at just the right pitch you may get a surprise!

Oded

[upnorth]

I think it goes something like this:

Violins were originally pub instruments (kind of like an antique version of a juke box). They were hung on the wall, and when you got drunk enough, you grabbed a violin off the wall and started playing.

Those days sheeps' heads were a top item on the menu (like today's pork pie, bangers 'n mash or fish 'n chips). So, to blend in with this, the scroll was conceived as a stylized version of ram's horns.

Jacob, Did you just get back from one of those pubs?

[Ron1]

I think it goes something like this:

Violins were originally pub instruments (kind of like an antique version of a juke box). They were hung on the wall, and when you got drunk enough, you grabbed a violin off the wall and started playing.

Those days sheeps' heads were a top item on the menu (like today's pork pie, bangers 'n mash or fish 'n chips). So, to blend in with this, the scroll was conceived as a stylized version of ram's horns.

[polkat]

Ron, that's interesting! Looks like that...animal piece was laid over and original scroll. Is that something of yours?

[Ron1]

Ron, that's interesting! Looks like that...animal piece was laid over and original scroll. Is that something of yours?

Not hardly! It's a ram's head violin scroll carved by Reindahl.

[~ Ben Conover]

The tone of this violin was improved greatly by adding an Irish cow horn to the scroll.

Many clients have asked for cow horn scrolls.......hahahahah.

[Shirl]

I have often wondered why there is a scroll at all? To shorten the length of the necessary added weight? Is the added weight determined by the size of the body of the instrument?

I would be delighted if anyone has the time to let me know!

Shirley(A decidedly non-knower of instrument manufacture)

[MANFIO]

The violin is a baroque instrument, everything on the Baroque is highly ornamented.

Even utilitarian objects should also be beautifull, Cellini made drawings for a compass of an Spanish ship when he was young.

Violins were comissioned by nobles and the Church, who would only buy beautifull objects.

But if we compare the violin with other instruments made in that time, such as viols and other plucked instruments, we will see that the violin has quite a "clean" look compared to them.

[~ Ben Conover]

Have a look at the viols of Barak Norman.

[Selim]

In the pass I had seen a couple of posts mentioning vibrating and non-vibrating spots on violin body.I think it is not valid approach to categorize the violin as vibrating and non-vibrating sections. Non-vibrating spots or parts play as important role as the vibrating parts.

I remember, there was a discussion on how the neck or button effects sound. I believe, scroll has effect on sound. However the violin must be a good sounding one to detect the difference. I think as the spot gets closer to violin body the effect gets stronger.

Mass distribution..

[Oded Kishony]

There's a spot on the violin that doesn't vibrate?????

Hard to believe

~OK

[Rokovak]

Tone affected by the shape of a scroll? Is this a serious question???

[Oded Kishony]

Seems crazy, doens't it.

Consider this:

In a recent experiment volunteers where presented with three differently shaped objects that were designed to ring at the same pitch when struck. When presented with the sound of each, a big majority of people were able to identify the shape of the object.

Or this:

It's recently been noticed that when people are listening to water being poured they are able to discriminate between hot and cold water.

The world is a mysterious place, no less so when scientifically investigated

Oded Kishony

[Rokovak]

In a recent experiment volunteers where presented with three differently shaped objects that were designed to ring at the same pitch when struck. When presented with the sound of each, a big majority of people were able to identify the shape of the object.

One random experiment proves nothing. Anyone who says they can hear the shape of an object must be consuming some pretty potent chemicals.

Or this:

It's recently been noticed that when people are listening to water being poured they are able to discriminate between hot and cold water.

I don't know about this, but I fail to see what relevance this has to stringed instruments.

The shape of a scroll has absolutely zero effect on sound. None. Zilch. How could it? Think about that. That's like debating on what color of car paint has the lowest drag coefficient. Now if we were to discuss the density of a scroll, that clearly has merit on the basis of sound propagation through varying bodies of mass. BUT...if two scrolls have the same mass, how on God's green Earth is a horse's head pegbox going to sound any different from a lion's head? I can't possibly be the only soul who sees the sheer lunacy in this!

[~ Ben Conover]

The scroll is decorative, I thought that was totoally obvious, it does not make any difference to the sound.

People who say it does are really just playing with ideas, for the sake of it, or perhaps they really do believe it to be so....

[Oded Kishony]

I'm not suggesting that one should worry that the shape of the scroll will ruin the sound of their instrument.

I'm trying to point out the subtelty and complexity of our perception of sound.

One random experiment proves nothing. Anyone who says they can hear the shape of an object must be consuming some pretty potent chemicals.

Seems this point has fallen on deaf ears

Earlier in the thread I made the point that small changes in mass (different pegs) can result in large changes in sound. Is it possible that changes in shape can cause changes in sound?

My answer is yes, it's possible

Do I spend my time worrying about this: No

Oded

[David Burgess]

Odeds example about being able to determine the shape of an object from the sound alone isn't bizarre at all.

I don't think any of us would have trouble distinguishing between a bell and a drum tuned to the same pitch.

Could that apply to a scroll? Who knows, but it's good food for thought.

[fiddlecollector]

Odeds example about being able to determine the shape of an object from the sound alone isn't bizarre at all.

I don't think any of us would have trouble distinguishing between a bell and a drum tuned to the same pitch.

Could that apply to a scroll? Who knows, but it's good food for thought.

Isnt that also to do with the materials???

My ibex fingerplanes make quite a nice bell like tone when the blade is removed but i couldnt guess the shape of one of them .

[MANFIO]

What about if we take Del Gesù's Cannone's fat scroll and compare it with the anorexic Leduc's scroll? Notwithstanding the huge differences in shape, mass and weight, both are superb instruments.

[Rokovak]

Seems this point has fallen on deaf ears

Earlier in the thread I made the point that small changes in mass (different pegs) can result in large changes in sound. Is it possible that changes in shape can cause changes in sound?

My answer is yes, it's possible

I'll concede to your earlier point concerning mass, I didn't read every response. Although we'll just have to agree to disagree over shape.

Odeds example about being able to determine the shape of an object from the sound alone isn't bizarre at all.

I don't think any of us would have trouble distinguishing between a bell and a drum tuned to the same pitch.

Could that apply to a scroll? Who knows, but it's good food for thought.

Forget comparing drums to bells, that's a misunderstanding of my point. I'm not talking about apples to oranges, I'm talking about apples to apples here. Are you saying that you and many others would have no trouble distinguishing between a circular bell and a trapezoidal bell, between a round drum and an octagonal drum, as long as the compared objects are of the same mass, construction materials & methods, AND everything is tuned to the same pitch? Hmm.....

I guess I wasn't totally clear in explaining myself, but I hope I cleared it up.

[Selim]

There's a spot on the violin that doesn't vibrate?????

Hard to believe

~OK

In sense of contribution to sound, right every thing anything has its own part in the final output.

But at least nodes according to their definition in wave mechanics, do not vibrate.

Or blocks are in the violin body but I dont think there is an expilicit contribution as vibrating components, but with their role in mass distribution they have a definite implicit role.