Hungarian violin 20K+

[Ray Weaver]

A friend of mine (No Jeffrey, not that friend) is looking at a no-name Hungarian violin from a private individual that is being offered at 22,000. The seller is "moving up" to an Italian in the 150K plus range and he is quite a fine player and very ethical from all accounts. He himself purchased the violin from a dealer/individual for $19,000 about 5 years ago.

The violin is unlabeled, but comes with papers from the dealer/individual (I'm not sure whether the papers are from the dealership or the individual) that state it to be something of the nature of "workshop of Nemessanyi". It is a gorgeous fiddle, with a top knotch sound quality, projection, ease of playability etc. (which of course means little in the world of dollars and cents).

Short of being a Nemessanyi itself (whose very existence as a maker, as opposed to shop owner, has been called into question) are their any other Hungarian makers who might command such a price?

In other words, will my friend be able to recapture at least a majority of the price should he/she decide to sell at some point in the future. If this is too sensitive a toipic please feel free to email me at violiner1@hotmail.com.

Thanks

[Fellow]

A friend of mine (No Jeffrey, not that friend) is looking at a no-name Hungarian violin from a private individual that is being offered at 22,000. The seller is "moving up" to an Italian in the 150K plus range and he is quite a fine player and very ethical from all accounts. He himself purchased the violin from a dealer/individual for $19,000 about 5 years ago.

The violin is unlabeled, but comes with papers from the dealer/individual (I'm not sure whether the papers are from the dealership or the individual) that state it to be something of the nature of "workshop of Nemessanyi". It is a gorgeous fiddle, with a top knotch sound quality, projection, ease of playability etc. (which of course means little in the world of dollars and cents).

Short of being a Nemessanyi itself (whose very existence as a maker, as opposed to shop owner, has been called into question) are their any other Hungarian makers who might command such a price?

In other words, will my friend be able to recapture at least a majority of the price should he/she decide to sell at some point in the future. If this is too sensitive a toipic please feel free to email me at violiner1@hotmail.com.

Thanks

+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

" It is a gorgeous fiddle, with a top knotch sound quality, projection, ease of playability etc." It is a dream for any buyer.

If the prospective buyer could see the same description then $ 20K is not

out of line, labelled or not. Possibility of recapturing the money paid is always there, perhaps even more. Should be

happy for your friend.

[MANFIO]

There are many fine Hungarian makers, and I find them undervalued, they can be quite "Italian" in character and perhaps there are many Hungarian violins bearing "better" labels today. Good sound is not subjective, at least to good musicians, I think.

[Omobono]

look anything like this?

http://www.prices4antiques.com/itemsummary/361938.htm

[skiingfiddler]

[Nemessanyi's] very existence as a maker, as opposed to shop owner, has been called into question.

That's a rather surprising statement. Can you elaborate?

A really fine Nemessanyi would go for well over $22,000 USD, I would think. Another Hungarian whose violins would be a bargain at $22,000 would be Bela Szepessy, who also worked in London, in addition to working on the continent. Another Hungarian to add to the list of circa $20K is Paul Pilat, Senior.

[~ Ben Conover]

In case we hadn't noticed, the price of oil has gone up, there's a world reccession, and the market for luxury goods like expensive violins, has dropped off a cliff.

[Omobono]

My first good sounding fiddle was Hungarian -

Dezso Barany of 1896.

It went with my Hungarian violin teacher.

[skiingfiddler]

Here's a link to a Strings Magazine page, year 2001, that gives the selling price of a Nemessanyi at Sotheby's year 2000 auction in Chicago at $35,000. Scroll about half way down the page to the violins, where violins are alphabetically listed.

Nemessanyi auction result

[MANFIO]

Most of the things we get have a ridiculous resale price and most things cannot be resaled.

Imagine for instance how much money we have spent in computer and eletronic related products (computers, printers, video cameras, videos, DVDs, etc) on the last 20 years and how many dollars they worth today...

So, if the instrument is good, if you are professional and will use it as a tool, forget the resale price and get it. Just my two cents.

[Dean_Lapinel]

Good sound is not subjective, at least to good musicians, I think.

At least this once my friend, I don't agree with you. Intonation is objective but the appreciation of sound from many instruments is subjective especially when it comes from a professional's point of view. Often times, such as with the oboe, it's not the instrument itself that causes debate but it might be the manner of achieving sound or the style of the reed. Stringed instruments are no different. Professionals will disagree about the quality of a sound from a stringed instrument just as wine experts will argue the subtleties of wines during a tasting.

[Ray Weaver]

Omobono, its looks nothing like the fiddle you pictured (I think it is much more attractive) but thanks for the photo. I have had a supposed (and I am not being sarcastic or ironic) expert who moves in rarefied circles tell me privately that the master Nemmy himself made no violins at all, only ran a workshop. I find this hard to believe but there is much in the violin world that seems hard to believe.

Would that make a workshop Nemmy as valuable as a real one? Is there a real one? It is enough to make one throw up one's hands and say buy it or buy it not as simply a fine playing violin, which is all I can advise. It is all the fiddle this player will ever need as she is a mature adult with ability but no fantasies of being a soloist.

[Jeffrey Holmes]

A friend of mine (No Jeffrey, not that friend) is looking at a no-name Hungarian violin from a private individual that is being offered at 22,000. The seller is "moving up" to an Italian in the 150K plus range and he is quite a fine player and very ethical from all accounts. He himself purchased the violin from a dealer/individual for $19,000 about 5 years ago.

The violin is unlabeled, but comes with papers from the dealer/individual (I'm not sure whether the papers are from the dealership or the individual) that state it to be something of the nature of "workshop of Nemessanyi". It is a gorgeous fiddle, with a top knotch sound quality, projection, ease of playability etc. (which of course means little in the world of dollars and cents).

Short of being a Nemessanyi itself (whose very existence as a maker, as opposed to shop owner, has been called into question) are their any other Hungarian makers who might command such a price?

In other words, will my friend be able to recapture at least a majority of the price should he/she decide to sell at some point in the future. If this is too sensitive a toipic please feel free to email me at violiner1@hotmail.com.

Thanks

Did "that friend" ever end up falling hard for a fiddle, Ray? Just curious...

Well, I'm not selling it (at least this time? ), so I won't get too specific (as is my policy concerning things for sale)... and I haven't seen this particular fiddle (unless I sold, appraised or worked on it at some point) but I have seen several Hungarian fiddles that (at least I couldn't) put an exact name on that I thought were plenty good enough to be sold at 20K. Another "name" that would fetch more (for a good one) besides those already mentioned would be Spiegel, BTW.

What caught my attention is the "private sale" thing. Sorry if I sound a but uncompromising, but if I were a player purchasing an instrument, especially one which may require someone to "back up" the value later on, from an individual... I'd want to get a pretty decent "deal" on it. As you well know, Ray, there is a very tangible value to what a good, reputable, dealer does in to support the instrument itself, and the equity, pre and post sale. What's that worth exactly? Well I leave it to you... but the asking price for this instrument seems to indicate that the owner feels it's appreciated whatever that is value is plus 3K in 5 years. Depending on the instrument, that might be reasonable... or not. Just my 2 cents...

Here's a suggestion: If both parties can agree, maybe a "discount" can be agreed upon (for the private sale) and a reliable appraiser can be selected to determine fair market value. Your friend can pay that value less the discount... or... if he/she just can't live without it... they can pay what's being asked and call it a day.

Oh... BTW: While he did and could make, Vuillaume was essentially a "shop owner" as well... He sure didn't build a business, invent stuff, deal extensively, raise a family AND make 3000 instruments himself.

Cheers!

[hollenbach]

Good sound is not subjective, at least to good musicians, I think.

Yes, you're right Manfio. But "taste" can be highly subjective amongst many good musicians.

[raleee]

I have violin from Hungarian maker Pfeifenroth Jozsef... On the ''sticker'' says it's made --1961. Budapest, VIII. Aggteleki u. 5.--

I'm very interested in my violin, so if someone knows something about this maker and this serie of violin, please reply!

Thanks in advance.

[skiingfiddler]

I have violin from Hungarian maker Pfeifenroth Jozsef... On the ''sticker'' says it's made --1961. Budapest, VIII. Aggteleki u. 5.--

I'm very interested in my violin, so if someone knows something about this maker and this serie of violin, please reply!

Thanks in advance.

There's nothing in Peter Benedek's 1995 book on Hungarian makers for Pfeifenroth.

As you probably already know, "Aggteleki u. 5" is a street address, "5 Aggteleki Street" The "VIII." is probably the district designation in Budapest, the 8th district.

Check Google for some information and you will find this link: Hungarian link with brief mention of Pfeifenroth Jozsef

Specifically, the mention there of Pfeifenroth Jozsef is:

"Ezt a 30-as évek elején alapította Pfeifenroth József, az akkori Aggteleki utca 5 szám alatt."

With my somewhat dormant Hungarian, I gather from that sentence that Pfeifenroth Jozsef established a shop at the beginning of the 1930s at 5 Aggteleki Street.

[Wolfjk]

I have violin from Hungarian maker Pfeifenroth Jozsef... On the ''sticker'' says it's made --1961. Budapest, VIII. Aggteleki u. 5.--

I'm very interested in my violin, so if someone knows something about this maker and this serie of violin, please reply!

Thanks in advance.

Hi,

As Skiingfiddler says it was a music shop, established by Jozsef Pfiefenroth in the 1930s.

In 1961, the shop was a working community(KTSZ) At that time very few individuals could own their own workshop due to the political situation. However there could have been a good violin maker in the shop who made the instrument. Incidentally, there is a Lajos(Lewis)Pfejfenroth mentioned in the link who was a woodwind instrument maker in the shop. The commercial side of the shop,and probably the export was managed by a member of the Remenyi family.

[Michael_Molnar]

Well, if you are looking for a violin with a Hungarian name, there is always Molnár.

[jacobsaunders]

Well, if you are looking for a violin with a Hungarian name, there is always Molnár.

You would have to change into "Mihaly" (with an accent on the "a")

[skiingfiddler]

In 1961, the shop was a working community(KTSZ) At that time very few individuals could own their own workshop due to the political situation.

That's a really interesting point and leads to a larger question: What happened to violin making in Czechoslovakia, East Germany, Hungary, and the rest of eastern Europe after the Communist imposed collectivization on eastern Europe? My guess is that quality might have slipped, if for no other reasons than access to materials and individual motivation to achieve excellence might have slipped. (As an example from another industry, the East German automobile, the Trabant, was, I've been told, not a reliable car.)

But there probably were eastern European violin makers who maintained high standards. I wish I knew their names. One such name is undoubtedly "Spidlen" in Czechoslovakia.

[martin swan]

HR Pfretzschner springs to mind ....

I had a Werner Barth violin which had a very communist label and varnish, but played beautifully. Apparently his violins were very popular in West Germany, but very difficult to obtain at the time.

[skiingfiddler]

... a very communist...varnish...

Martin,

One might suspect that varnish would have been the component that was most negatively affected. Can you elaborate about what you have seen in terms of quality of eastern European varnishes from that time?

[jacobsaunders]

Martin,

One might suspect that varnish would have been the component that was most negatively affected. Can you elaborate about what you have seen in terms of quality of eastern European varnishes from that time?

The german equivilant of the hungarian KTSZ was a VEB (Volkseigenen Betrieb). To keep it simple, just imagine what it would do to my motivation if some party official was telling me what I should or shouldn`t make and if I was only an employee in my very own shop. I have yet to meet a varnish with a political conviction but have met a fair number of fed up colleagues.

[skiingfiddler]

The german equivilant of the hungarian KTSZ was a VEB (Volkseigenen Betrieb). To keep it simple, just imagine what it would do to my motivation if some party official was telling me what I should or shouldn`t make and if I was only an employee in my very own shop. I have yet to meet a varnish with a political conviction but have met a fair number of fed up colleagues.

Jacob,

Sounds like you might have a story or two to tell about violins which came out of the VEB system. Are there any VEB makers you hold in especially high esteem for high quality work despite the challenges they faced?

[jacobsaunders]

Jacob,

Sounds like you might have a story or two to tell about violins which came out of the VEB system. Are there any VEB makers you hold in especially high esteem for high quality work despite the challenges they faced?

Steven, You would be far better advised directly asking one of the colleagues who worked there personaly, rather than second-hand anecdotes from me.