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Jimmy_Hill

outside mould help

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how does one fit the blocks, by eye? the ribs arent glued to the mould i assume, any good books on making with an outside mould, im going to make a garland for fun and see how good i can get at using an outside mould

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run away.......

its the french....back to taunt us a second time...

google....

david langsather...

he's into the french thing....has a great step by step for free

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Hi Jimmy,

If you're interested in versatility and original design, the outside mold may not be what you are looking for. My understanding is that they are great for producing consistent rib structure but limit you from adjusting your design.

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well im aiming for accuracy as far as lines and shape goes, then if i like it ill make my own style outside mould, anyone know of a place that sells outside moulds, my bandsaw isnt big enough to cut one

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My take on outside moulds is that they are for "manufacturing", inside moulds for "making".

Jimmy, you will make mistakes on your first violin (and second, and third, and fourth...).

If you don't plan on irrevocably screwing up violin #1 at stage #1 (the mould), do an inside mould. That way you can get advice from this forum (I don't know of anybody here who uses an outside mould) and fix/balance things as you go along.

By the time you get to violin #30, perhaps you will things sorted out to the point where you can start manufacturing and switch to an outside mould.

In the meantime, don't tackle any hurdles you don't need to.

To elaborate about the "manufacturing" thing: with an outside mould as basis, separate individuals can produce the separate parts of a violin independently, to be assembled at a central point. What is possible is duplication/interchangeability of parts - don't confuse this with "accuracy". With an outside mould you can produce an infinite number of identically out-of-whack violins from the same mould - why would you want to produce even one?

An "accurate" outside mould is a bitch to make.

The classic Italian violin-makers were classified as "wood carvers/sculptors". French violin-factory workers were probably more like "carpenters". What is it that you want to be?

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I have known professional makers who have used both kinds of molds.

 My teacher used outside molds and so I started with them.

 It is not true that you will always have a consistent

outline. I haven't used one in years, but I recently acquired a

nice viola that I would like to copy and it occurred to me that by

removing the top and tracing the rib outline it would be easier to

make an accurate outside mold.

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I use an outside mold, and am very happy with the results. My ribs come out consistent, and because this is what I learned on I am very comfortable with this method. Once the all the corners and blocks are glued in I glue in a temporary brace Made from scrap wood that holds the rib outline to form. The whole rib assembly is then removed from the mold, and linings are easily glued in at this time. Once the ribs are glued to the top plate and the neck mortised in (I always close up the corpus with the back last) the temporary frame is removed. I used an inside mold a few times and found it to be more work and reverted back to what works best for me.

Also, I have never needed to use a bending iron in my life. I soak the ribs in hot water until they are plyable, and then bend them in a wooden mold and clamp them. Throw them in the oven for a couple hours at low heat, and they are ready for assembly. Nice thing about this is the bend is always consistent, and they don't have a tendency to straighten out when removed from the bending mold, even sitting loose on a shelf months after being bent.

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Michael Darton occaisionally works for Jim Brown who learned on an external Mould, his teacher RE Evans exclusively on external mould, her teacher Mario Frosali the great Italian maker taught exclusively external mould, Michael Fischer has used internal and external French moulds, Hans Weishaar often used French moulds for exact copies, Myself, Joshua Blevins, Simone Sacconi, Charles Beare the list goes on and on, if you think internal moulds are the only way to go youre dead wrong and potentially living in 18th century Italy!!! joke, sincerely Lyndon Most of the great 19th and 20th century German makers used external moulds Lowendall, EH Roth etc. etc., etc.,

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quote:


Originally posted by:
Taylor's Fine Violins

Michael Darton occaisionally works for Jim Brown who learned on an external Mould, his teacher RE Evans exclusively on external mould, her teacher Mario Frosali the great Italian maker taught exclusively external mould, Michael Fischer has used internal and external French moulds, Hans Weishaar often used French moulds for exact copies, Myself, Joshua Blevins, Simone Sacconi, Charles Beare the list goes on and on, if you think internal moulds are the only way to go youre dead wrong and potentially living in 18th century Italy!!! joke, sincerely Lyndon Most of the great 19th and 20th century German makers used external moulds Lowendall, EH Roth etc. etc., etc.,

Lyndon, I'm a little concerned that readers may not be able to tell when you're serious and when you're joking. Did "joke" refer to the last sentence only, or the entire post?

I never saw an external mold used in the Weisshaar shop, by Hans or anyone else. Never even saw one in storage there. Saw plenty of work with inside molds. The rest of the people you mentioned, I don't know about.

Are you sure we want to call Frosali a "great Italian maker"?

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Youre very funny David obviously youve heard of Simone Sacconi, Charlse Beare, and Michael fischer, And Frosali not the greatest italian maker the greatest living in Clifornia maker by most estimates, at least if youre a fan of Italian violin making, David do you make Italian violins or do you follow youre own system don;t post it on the internet none of us want to give away our secrets seriously you can trust me to keep a secret ( Do you know Hulk Hogan, do you know Hulk Hogan, ive only met him once he was a little scared of me compoared to me a little guy 5' 8'' I think what with me being world kickfighting champ and heavy weight king for a month but I really like hulk, really nice guy really sincere, mentioned he was a big fan of my movies etc, much better more respectable guy than me, Im 6'5" 250lbs now just into heavyweight class for the first time in two years after going crusier class up to 280lbs my wifes tougher than me 5'11' 250lbs, sumo wrestling, and world class boixing are her specialities, we never fight, especeially now except over who takes the lead in lovemaking, If you know what I mean; you probably think Im joking, but Im not faid inkum, for real Im telling the truth Honesty is our best policy as it say on our buinsess card, okk off) pm me ill get you the betts Mould and then when you get it well talk, sincerely Lydnon II

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We use outside molds on instruments where the design is fully developed and where we have sufficient volume. For low production items and for instrument designs under development we use inside molds, because they are a whole lot less work.

We run stock for corner blocks in fairly long lengths and then cut off individual corner blocks, but each corner block still needs some careful fitting in order to make a proper joint, since the ribs never seem to bend precisely the same.

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Hi Lyndon interesting reading - but tell me; what is it you see just below the L and the ; key on your keyboard? And to the right of that?? Is there something missing?

Here; use some of mine, surplus to requirements

. . . . . . . .

. . . . . . . .

? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ?

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