Speaking of Bending Irons...

[davet]

Your inclusions are on the microscopic level versus macroscopic and would have little impact on heat transfer. I totally agree on the thermal mass statement -- the more mass the better. Heat up time is of little inconvenience. Maintaining the desired temperature is of more import.

Cast versus milled from ingot -- the difference in thermal conductivity would be minor caused by grain structure and metallurgical chemical makeup. The thermal mass again would be of more importance.

[David Tseng]

It would be a lot cheaper to use near-net-shape investment casting. The procedures would be like these: make a negative mould and cast , say 500 to 1000 wax forms (including heating element and screw holes); arrange the wax forms in a tray (50 to 100 per tray); pour ceramic slurry; when it is dry, heat the tray to remove wax, then it's ready to pour aluminum.

[GMM22]

Your inclusions are on the microscopic level versus macroscopic and would have little impact on heat transfer.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------

If the definition of macroscopic inclusion is visibility without magnification, I have seen macroscopic inclusions in cast metals including aluminum, however, it remains true that even they would have a negligible effect on heat transfer. The affect on the psyche of those obsessed with perfection (in just knowing they are there) is another matter, and this aspect cannot be accurately gauged. I am not one of these people, well, at least not when it comes to bending irons.

[GMM22]

"It would be a lot cheaper to use near-net-shape investment casting."

I think this is how the Ibex is made. Mine looks to be two halves, welded (voids are visible right up and down the symmetrical axis), then machined somehow.

[C.B.Fiddler]

I think that Matt (and I) are asking if it is sold or hollow. Casting may infer that it is a hollowed form that aluminum is "cast" in. Functionally, I think we all agree that having a solid head on the iron makes for a more productive heat transferral.

I have second response from the seller:

"Dear c.b.fiddler,

Hi

It is solid, as far as I can tell, just by the shear weight of this things over 3.5 Lbs. and the cello one more than double that.

Dov-music

- doviol"

I wish I had more info, but not many of us knew that the Ibex was thin until we bought it!

[David Tseng]

What I worry about this bending iron is the electronic section will fail first and the replacement parts are not easy to come by. If this happens in 5 to 10 years, one can always remove the electronics and put in a cheap potentiometer to control the temperature like the old Ibex.

[M_A_T_T]

quote:

---

Originally posted by:

C.B.Fiddler

I think that Matt (and I) are asking if it is sold or hollow. Casting may infer that it is a hollowed form that aluminum is "cast" in.

---

That's what I meant, cast as per the Ibex (hollow inside).

quote:

---

Originally posted by:

David Tseng

What I worry about this bending iron is the electronic section will fail first and the replacement parts are not easy to come by. If this happens in 5 to 10 years, one can always remove the electronics and put in a cheap potentiometer to control the temperature like the old Ibex.

---

This is one of the reasons I am going with the cheaper one myself.

quote:

---

It is solid, as far as I can tell, just by the shear weight of this things over 3.5 Lbs. and the cello one more than double that.

---

I weighed my Ibex with my solid milled form and it came to 3lbs 14oz. It has a large wooden base. This one has a small metal base. Could we safely assume it is solid?

[Andres Sender]

Matt--I think that's a safe assumption at this point.

[GMM22]

quote:

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Originally posted by: C.B.Fiddler

I think that Matt (and I) are asking if it is sold or hollow. Casting may infer that it is a hollowed form that aluminum is "cast" in.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

That's what I meant, cast as per the Ibex (hollow inside).

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Hmmm... Then one still cannot make head nor tails out of the question since something can be cast and yet be solid or hollow. Further, billet (in the sense you said you had one milled from) can be solid or drilled such that it is rendered hollow. Even the definition of hollow is problematic since a ½" hole drilled down the center of a 3" diameter object hardly renders the object hollow, or does it? And the idea that "cast heats up very quickly and holds the heat compared to billet aluminum" makes even less sense if it was in reference to whether an object contains a chamber (drilled or cast) to receive a heater cartridge.

[GMM22]

In other words, there was and remains a lack of proper definition and clarity in the inquiry. The term solid is a type of geometry whereas the term cast is a process. The two words are incompatible for the intended purpose.

The question is, what is the question.

[C.B.Fiddler]

Wow, GM22. This is sounding like the question of defining the word "is."

Cast, milled, or forged aside, the question is:

Is the aluminum head solid with exception of the 1/2" hole for the heating element, or is it a "shell" design similar to the Ibex:

The important part being, in a "solid" design the 1/2" hole wont be hollow after you put the heating element in it.

[C.B.Fiddler]

quote:

---

Originally posted by:

NewNewbie

quote:

---

Originally posted by:

C.B.Fiddler

Here is his

response. I have sent another message to see if he can find out a

little more about whether it is cast or solid: "Dear c.b.fiddler,

Hi Cant tell you 100% the answer to all your question, I can tell

you its the best tool I ever had, for my violin making At the

moment I have it for violin or for cello only 110V I will have it

220V in about 2-3 weeks. Dov - doviol"

---

Can you ask him how long it takes to get up to working temperature?

---

NewNewbie,

He just emailed me that it takes only a few minutes to heat up.

CB

[GMM22]

"Is the aluminum head solid with exception of the 1/2" hole for the heating element, or is it a "shell" design similar to the Ibex"

Now that is a well formulated and comprehensible question.

But let it also be said that defining the terms solid, cast, hollow, billet, etc., in order to make a question intelligable, is not remotely the same as defining the word "is" solely for the purpose of a ruse.

[M_A_T_T]

Some one placed a bid on it, was it one of us?

[M_A_T_T]

quote:

---

Originally posted by:

C.B.Fiddler

He just emailed me that it takes only a few minutes to heat up.

CB

---

Mine takes 20 minutes to heat up, I wonder what kind of heating element it uses.

[Mike_Danielson]

On the issue of cast versus machined aluminum parts--which heats up faster: it is important to note that the two may not have the same composition. Casting alloys usually require additions of other metals to improve liquid flow at high temperatures (makes them cast better)--compositional differences can change the heat capacity.

Mike D

[Andres Sender]

Matt--would yours take 20 minutes to heat up if you put it on 'maximum' for the time it took to heat up? I suspect our cartridges could heat our solid irons up more quickly if we were willing to monitor the process the way the digital temperature control presumably does.

[M_A_T_T]

quote:

---

Originally posted by:

Andres Sender

Matt--would yours take 20 minutes to heat up if you put it on 'maximum' for the time it took to heat up?

---

I went through my journal and I had written that on 3.5 it took 20 minutes to heat up, then got too hot and I had to turn it down to about 2.

I suspect it would work, as I can hear something inside the unit click periodically, and I believe this to be the heater being turned on and off. The higher the control setting the longer the cartridge would remain on, so it may very well heat up faster if set on Hi, but be careful. The instructions from Ibex state leaving it on Hi will damage the cartridge, so you would definately need to closely monitor it if you were to try it on Hi.

[GMM22]

Most heat controls operate on periodic on/off cycles rather than continuous variable voltage. All heaters will heat much faster on the highest setting, and it is a waste to wait for a slow climb to adequate heat at low settings. There would be little danger in using the highest setting to get to where one wants to be, as long as the temperature is throttled back before long. One would only need to determine the time taken taken to heat on the highest setting once, and simply use a cheap kitchen timer in the future to alert one that the unit should be turned down.

Infrared thermometers with or without thermocouple capability are so cheap these days, anyone can attain very accurate temperature monitoring on their existing units. I have seen IR thermometers for as little as $59. Some units (like mine) also have built in alarms that can be preset to any hi/low temperature window.

[C.B.Fiddler]

quote:

---

Originally posted by:

M_A_T_T

quote:

---

Originally posted by:

C.B.Fiddler

He just emailed me that it takes only a few minutes to heat up.

CB

---

Mine takes 20 minutes to heat up, I wonder what kind of heating element it uses.

---

I asked him about the heating element and he did not know any specifics.

[David Tseng]

I fill the space between the heating capsule and the aluminum with ceramics clay powder to facilitate heat transfer. When I turn it on, I set it at 5, after about 4 minutes, water would no longer wet the aluminum surface and I turn it to 3. Mine is a 25 years old Ibex fitted with a small home-made aluminum block.

[captainhook]

quote:

---

Originally posted by:

M_A_T_T

quote:

---

Originally posted by:

C.B.Fiddler

He just emailed me that it takes only a few minutes to heat up.

CB

---

Mine takes 20 minutes to heat up, I wonder what kind of heating element it uses.

---

The reason his heats so quickly is the controller instead of a rheostat. The rheostat provides constant power, which is not good if you want control. I have quite a bit of experience with controllers similar to the one Dov uses and have never had one fail. His controller is a very low cost option. If I were buying one I wouldn't even consider the one without the controller at these prices.

[David Tseng]

"His controller is a very low cost option."

Dov Schmidt mentioned that it was "Euorpean designed" and , as usual, "Chinese made".

[NewNewbie]

Perhaps an internal view would be a good picture for Dov Schmidt to

post on the web-site???

Might increase sales???

[C.B.Fiddler]

Based on my email discussions with Dov and with absolutely no disrespect intended, Dov seems to be uninterested to do such. He seems to be more of a "it works for me and that's enough" kind of user - as opposed to many of us that want to know why and how things works (or doesn't work) so well.