Tenacity/Frugality/IQ test


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Tim is working on a design that is not his own, and was asked by the one he got it from to not publicly post it. Seems to me that Tim is taking appropriate actions in his photos.

People make do with all sorts of bending irons. I know one person who has used a hair-curling iron to make reasonable instruments.

After Manfio's post on Strad's irons, I tried to track down a photo (I don't own Sacconi ). Ran across this

http://fourstrings.wordpress.c...bend-it-like-antonio/

Never did find a photo of Strad's iron.

Cheers,

Ken

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Made some decent progress today. I'm even doing some file work now, when I need to take a break from cutting. I'll give it a rest tomorrow, and do some more work on the violin. All things considered, I definitely enjoy working with wood more than working with metal...

iron_3.jpg

iron_4.jpg

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quote:


Originally posted by:
David Tseng

I agree with Tim: the less info is giving out in the public forum the better chance one can stay ahead of the competitors. Now I learned the lesson. I think Michael Darnton finally realized that and therefore he quit posting.


Gee. I can't see that anyone is twisting arms to "give out information". Do so if you want to. Don't if you don't. If you're really concerned with staying ahead of the competition, there are probably more productive things you can do than making the effort to hold back information.

This is a discussion board... If a discussion is opened concerning a specific subject in which you wish to participate, purposefully "holding back" information is probably not all that productive... but do what you have to do. If ones word is given not to show something specific (like in Tim's case), I can understand the reluctance to break a promise... but I personally might have elected to skip posting particulars altogether. Still, sometimes one puts oneself into a corner, even with all good intentions...

My experience seems to indicate that someone who really knows their stuff has plenty to share, even if they aren't sharing all of what they know.... and if they're really intelligent, as well as ahead of the curve, you may not have any idea of what they may know that they aren't talking about... and might not "get it" if even if they did start talking.

I'd be a bit slower to put words in MD's mouth David. If you want to know why he stopped posting, you might just ask him.

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I certainly am very grateful for all that I have learned here, from those very experienced as well as from my fellow newcomers, who have stimulated many discussions on the difficulties of learning without direct supervision. And Tim, although working metal is not one of my favorite pastimes, I expect you will wind up with an iron that works better than the commercial one I own.

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I do want to apologize for creating controversy where none was warranted, that was not my intention. This thread was never intended as a discourse on cutting-edge bending iron design, it was merely an attempt at some wry humor at my own expense, for attempting something like this without benefit of, or access to, proper tools and procedures. That it can be done this way there is no doubt, whether it's worth it is another calculation best left to the individual case. As Jeffrey says, it might have been better if I hadn't posted at all on this topic, and in future I'll be more careful in my decision of what might best be posted or left unposted. I meant no disrespect to the forum or to any individual members. I am truly grateful for all the information posted here, and I have benefitted greatly from it. If in future I have information that could benefit others, I won't hesitate to share it.

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Don't apologize, Tim. Keep posting as usual. Your stance was not only logical but without alternative. There should have been no controversy at all.

I love reading Luis' tutorials. I might one day even visit Brazil just to meet him and his violas. Your posts are equally valuable to a different segment of the members here. The instructions and revelations by the pros in lutherie are priceless, but can be compared to Rembrandt. A novice could be totally discouraged. But as you succeed step by step and share difficulties, I may be inspired to follow in your carving footsteps one day because I have half a chance of getting similar results.

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The plan is to cut the block down to perhaps 1/4" of uncut base, and drill bolt holes to attach it to the box. It was certainly daunting at the beginning, but once I got into it, it seemed to go reasonably quickly. I should have the iron completed by next weekend...

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"As Jeffrey says, it might have been better if I hadn't posted at all on this topic, and in future I'll be more careful in my decision of what might best be posted or left unposted."

There was nothing at all wrong with the topic. You simply managed to create unanticipated intrigue through the tacit idea that you were in possession of a proprietary and thus superior design. Had you left the scraps on the top and said nothing, there is little chance anyone would have even noticed. Truth be told, even if you showed the diagram or finished curve, it would take advanced photo software and/or recourse to the mathematics of projective geometry for someone else to extrapolate and accurately render the curve and its true size from a single oblique photo. I think NASA might be able to pull it off.

The probability that any violinmaker would have identified your design as patently superior from a rough sketch on a block of aluminum, and thus execute a plan using the aforementioned requisites to successfuly replicate it so that they could replace their current iron, is smaller than Yuen taking up violinmaking and winning six consecutive VSA gold medals with his first six tries.

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Tim, please don't misconstrue Jeffrey's comment, there is no question that this thread was worthwhile. I think Jeffrey just meant that it might have been possible to sidestep the issue which ruffled some feathers. If you take anything from this experience please don't make it a hesitation to post at all, but at most merely a further refinement of your practice of the fine art of forum posting, which for all of us is hopefully continually evolving.

And in case anyone's feathers are still ruffled, I'd like to suggest that perhaps the pattern originator's goal was not to withhold the design from you personally, or to set it on a pedestal, but rather to prevent his or her time and work from being cherry-picked off the web without so much as a by-your-leave by some commercial concern which would then benefit from it without actually sharing the high standards which produced it.

Edit: err, yeah, what they said.

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"The probability that any violinmaker would have identified your design as patently superior from a rough sketch on a block of aluminum, and thus execute a plan using the aforementioned requisites to successfuly replicate it so that they could replace their current iron, is smaller than Yuen taking up violinmaking and winning six consecutive VSA gold medals with his first six tries."

Well O.K., maybe the probability is not that small...

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Thank you for the compliments. How about 1 gold medal in repair category. (Kidding)

My skill of photo work has been greatly improved lately.

I think Tim Mc. bending iron project is great, something unique.

Keep it up, not be discouraged. It may lead to new design, who know?

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Thanks, guys, and don't worry, I doubt if I could restrain my general inclination to verbosity all that much, but what I realized way too late was that I could have just left David T's observation hanging, without responding to it, and thereby avoided the ruffled feathers. I'll try to remember that lesson.

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quote:


Originally posted by:
strauzart

Don't apologize, Tim. Keep posting as usual. Your stance was not only logical but without alternative. There should have been no controversy at all.

I love reading Luis' tutorials. I might one day even visit Brazil just to meet him and his violas. Your posts are equally valuable to a different segment of the members here. The instructions and revelations by the pros in lutherie are priceless, but can be compared to Rembrandt. A novice could be totally discouraged. But as you succeed step by step and share difficulties, I may be inspired to follow in your carving footsteps one day because I have half a chance of getting similar results.

And using a phrase I've stolen from myself, I'd just like to say: Wot Keld sed!

Neil

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Tim,

I am afraid of asking this - fear of black helicopters circling the house and possible relocation by the witness protection program - but feel free to leave me hanging if this is a taboo specs question.

How thick are you leaving the walls of the aluminum? I took a peak inside my Ibex and noticed that they are pretty thin.

Thanks,

CB

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quote:


Originally posted by:
C.B.Fiddler

How thick are you leaving the walls of the aluminum? I took a peak inside my Ibex and noticed that they are pretty thin.

Oh, JEEZ, CB... surely you don't think I'm THAT much of a masochist... I'm cuttin' out the thing with a hacksaw, fer cryin' out loud... (notice the winkies... I'm over-emoting on purpose here)

The iron will remain almost completely solid... the only "interior" will be the 1/2" hole I drill for the cartridge heater (which arrived today... YAY!!). So there will be plenty of mass to hold the heat, which should (I would think) make it more efficient. Once I get it all done up, I'll have to play with it a bit to see how hot it gets at what setting, and how long it takes to get there.

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What would be the advantage of a hollow iron shape? Ibex saves some money on Al and the iron might heat up faster. Unfortunately it would also cool down faster as it doesn't have as much thermal mass. When putting the cool rib surface on the iron, more thermal mass would seem to be an advantage.

Excellent thread, I'm enjoying the technical part. Don't stop posting Tim! And thanks Manfio for the great "how to" posts on the scroll and corners!

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quote:


Originally posted by:
Tim McTigue

quote:


Originally posted by:
C.B.Fiddler

How thick are you leaving the walls of the aluminum? I took a peak inside my Ibex and noticed that they are pretty thin.

Oh, JEEZ, CB... surely you don't think I'm THAT much of a masochist...
IMG]  I
(notice the winkies... I'm over-emoting on purpose here)

The iron will remain almost completely solid... the only "interior" will be the 1/2" hole I drill for the cartridge heater (which arrived today... YAY!!). So there will be plenty of mass to hold the heat, which should (I would think) make it more efficient. Once I get it all done up, I'll have to play with it a bit to see how hot it gets at what setting, and how long it takes to get there.

Oh, sure Tim - I see. Take the easy road then (more over-dramatics here as well!)

I think the solid block should perform better as well. Just a thought, when I removed the aluminum from the ibex, the wood base was a bit black (somewhat charred) even though it has some kind of fibrous divider between the aluminum and the top of the casing - and the cartridge is floating in the middle (both lengthwise and width.) With a heat-retaining solid AL block and the cartridge heater being closer to the casing, you might want to take some more aggressive fire-proofing measures.

I am very interested in this thread because this is something I have been considering for a few months. Thanks and keep the pics coming as you progress!!!!

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