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Mat Roop

what is the proper name of this style bow?

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Matt,

This looks exactly like the Sear & Robuck bow that I have ca. 1897 (see picture on my website). The only difference is that appears that your tip may have a metat tip protector? The frog on mine is imitation ivory (celluloid- you can smell it if you do any work on the frog). I found the info on this website:

http://mewzik.com/research/searsbow/

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My dad had an old Sears and Robuck catalog and they used to like to carry stuff like this. Probably because it looked good in pictures. The old catalogs were mostly hand drawn black and white drawings so there was little reason to carry 15 different Tourte style bows that would look exactly the same in a drawing.

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quote:


Originally posted by:
Mat Roop

Doug thanks so much....great information I would not have had otherwise.... Thanks, Mat

Hi Mat and all:

There are a couple of give away things to look for if you think you have a valuable bow. Frogs and screws can get changed or stolen. What I look for are the threads on the screw,before the industrial revolution these were hand made in a die of sorts. The die was made in 2 halves of plate steel with each half having each thread cut into the steel. Needless to say they had to be a mirror image continuing the thread. To make the screws the blank was put between the 2 halves which were indexed with pins and then struck with a hammer thus forging the thread. When the screw was compressed some would squeeze out along the part line. They would then rotate the screw 90' and strike again, this would then fold the flash back into the screw. It would be repeated several times, however that first strike leaves a very fine line right down each side. It sometimes has to be seen with an eye loupe but it's the criteria used.

The nut on the frog can also be used if you can determine it was made by hand These were filed square and sometimes weren't always square and you could see the file marks.

Now the bow, the slots were cut by hand thus you will see chisel and scratch marks at the ends and along the sides. Again it may take an eye loupe to see these. Take a bow such as this apart and you will see it's too well machined and all the parts will look well made. This is not to say these things can't be forged but I've yet to see any fake forged adjusting screws.

I had a Lupot bow, the real thing which _________ stole from me when I sent it for repairs. I have pictures and know every mark on it, I saw a Lupot got sold for $24,000 back in 2002-2003. I called the local police who showed up on his doorstep, at first he denied it but when I made the 2nd call they again went and revisited, suddenly he remembered it was sent Priority Mail with signature. What he sent back unrepaired was a piece of junk not worth $300 dollars. What a snake, some day he will get his, maybe the IRS will examine this huge profit. Bummers.

gtm

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Over here in Europe on ebay they seem to get the tag of Vuillaume style bows,they are often stamped Vuillaume.Not sure why as i havent seen one from the Vuillaume shop looking like it. There is a Prosper Colas(who worked for Vuillaume) bow in the Cite de Musique with a similar adjuster/button,but the frog is without that `curly tail`.

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I'm just wondering - apart from the ethics issue, is it legally OK just to call somebody a thief on a public Internet Forum? As far as I know there was no court case where somebody was actually found guilty?

Or the flip side of the coin - could the accused party institute legal proceedings for defamation?

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quote:


Originally posted by:
Jacob

I'm just wondering - apart from the ethics issue, is it legally OK just to call somebody a thief on a public Internet Forum? As far as I know there was no court case where somebody was actually found guilty?

Or the flip side of the coin - could the accused party institute legal proceedings for defamation?

I think the answers would be "no" and "yes" respectively.

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The point is - will they even bother to take me in?

But if you wanted to deprive me of a good night's sleep, you've succeeded - why orange? Does it show up better in the corn fields which, according to the movies, always surround penitentiaries? Or is it supposed to lift your spirits? Man, have you got me going or what...

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quote:


Originally posted by:
Jacob

...

Or the flip side of the coin - could the accused party institute legal proceedings for defamation?

Hi Jacob and all:

I wish he would.

I cannot count the dozens of unanswered emails and phone calls. Calls even to his / wife's Internet provider to verify they were still customers. The problem was he was 1200 miles away. Mounting legal action in another state possibly superior court would have been more than what he and Butterfield & Butterfield initially appraised it. On top of that it was my daughter who actually sent it who was a minor at the time.

The man was drooling over the phone when we first made contact indicating how much he would like to have it. That was the last call ever answered until the police were called to verify he still lived there. I even tried the FBI WCC since there were other ongoing investigations.

Why would he _not_ sue me, easy, he would not want to open up his business dealings to public scrutiny. I don't know if he was fired from his former employer but something went on there.

The lesson, never will I ever send anything of value out of state to someone I've not looked in their eye. I will continue to speak the truth about ________ till the day I die.

This is not the first scam that has been pulled in this business and I'm sure not the last.

Cheers,

gtm

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Very well, I'm not about to question the merits of your case.

What I'm questioning is you sniping at the guy on an Internet forum from behind a "user name". To me that's terrorism.

Either pursue your case via legal channels or shut up, and live and learn without involving the rest of the world in the process.

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quote:


Originally posted by:
gtm

I don't know if he was fired from his former employer but something went on there.

gtm

Former employer? _______ has been on his own for close to 25 years.

Who examined and appraised the bow at Butterfield & Butterfield?

_______ also examined it and then appraised it?

quote:


Originally posted by:
gtm

The man was drooling over the phone when we first made contact indicating how much he would like to have it.

Can I assume your first contact was by phone? He was drooling over a bow he had never seen?

quote:


Originally posted by:
gtm

I even tried the FBI WCC since there were other ongoing investigations.

Investigations of what? Are you saying that ____ was being investigated by the FBI?

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quote:


Originally posted by:
Jacob

Very well, I'm not about to question the merits of your case.

What I'm questioning is you sniping at the guy on an Internet forum from behind a "user name". To me that's terrorism.

Either pursue your case via legal channels or shut up, and live and learn without involving the rest of the world in the process.

When you get burned by someone big time you may take another stance. However, I see no relationship to terrorism. How else is someone to learn of a business person's character if all that is offered are glowing testimonials when there is a dark side not reported.

In good faith you take your car in for repair, would you not want to be an informed customer before you were ripped off. There are now consumer laws to protect you from automotive repair shop abuses. There are no consumer laws for this, just ask several members of the St Louis Symphony.

The dichotomy is do I listen to you(singular) and shut up or do I have a voice and a right which you may not want to hear... Would it not be a failure of abdicated responsibility...

You have every right to have an opinion just as I do. The difference is how handle objectivity without resulting in implied terrorism tactics. It is not my name that is call to question. Certainly Mat Roop may not agree had he thought to use his services.

If you have a personal thing with me take it to PM.

Thanks,

gtm

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Impropriety goes beyond the individual perpertrating the activity.

The hosting agent, in this case Maestronet, would also be involved.

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Still trying to clarify some things.

Are you saying that ______ denied receiving a bow from you, or is it that he didn't receive a "Lupot"?

Did this bow have a previous appraisal upon examination from Butterfield & Butterfield, and if so, who appraised it; or was it something like, "I have a Lupot. What is it worth?"

You're right about some stuff that happened around St Louis. People in the trade all know about it. If something was going on with _______, and especially if it was investigated by law enforcement (is that the claim?), it would be most surprising if none of us in the trade had ever heard about it.

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quote:


Originally posted by:
David Burgess

quote:


Originally posted by:
gtm

I don't know if he was fired from his former employer but something went on there.

gtm

Former employer? ________ has been on his own for close to 25 years.

Who examined and appraised the bow at Butterfield & Butterfield?

_______ also examined it and then appraised it?

quote:


Originally posted by:
gtm

The man was drooling over the phone when we first made contact indicating how much he would like to have it.

Can I assume your first contact was by phone? He was drooling over a bow he had never seen?

quote:


Originally posted by:
gtm

I even tried the FBI WCC since there were other ongoing investigations.

Investigations of what? Are you saying that ____ was being investigated by the FBI?

Hi David and all:

I think you may find it's a lot less than that.

............

If the B&B name is important I can dig it up, it's one of those memory lapse things. He might even be a member here.

..........

First contact was to have him look at it, second was to establish repair costs and appraisal AFTER it arrived.

..........

I certainly tried, if you know anything about the FBI WCC so I have learned they will _not_ disclose anything. Twice I have hand delivered papers and floppy disks for different things to Wilton's Waffle. They take them, make copies and give them back. Follow up phone calls may get you a person's name but they will not tell you if they are investigating or if it went to archives. I presume if there were a court case I would be contacted. I also contacted the field office for the region but never returned my call.

Unlike the bigger cases with millions of dollars from several major orchestras this may have been a singular event. At the time I called the regional FBI they were combining offices and I was of the impression there was only one agent... good luck. I understand the need for secrecy and I have to accept that to some degree.

The other case took almost 2 years, it was a case of hacking into the Los Angeles school system computers and harassing people including myself. As it supposedly turned out no harm done according to newspaper reports. Who was it, the school police chief's son who only got a slap on the hand. Go figure.

Cheers,

gtm

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Gosh. I was gone for the day and look what happened.

gtm: There was either a complaint, or there wasn't. The FBI either investigated or it didn't. The bow was either a Lupot or it wasn't. Charges were brought or they weren't.

I'm shutting this one down... The name in question has been removed.

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