Old "Italian" violins on ebay

[doctahg]

OK, I admit I am an ebay junkie and have been from the start. I like to browse listings for old Carnival glass, Triumph motorcycles, and, of course, violins! One often sees "old Italian-labeled" instruments for sale. For example, there is a new listing for a "Leandro Bisiach" violin:

dZViewItem">http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/GORGEOUS...WQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem

If it were genuine, then it would sell for tens of thousands of dollars, right? So it must be am imposter. But then what is it? Where do all these violins come from? To my VERY untrained eye, this does not look like one of the horde of German trade violins (I had one.) The edges look well-executed; the purfling is good, with nice sharp bee-stings; the corners themselves are assertive and beautifully finished, not unlike a true Bisiach. The scroll is good, and the varnish seems complex and interesting to me. Even if it's not a Bisiach, it seems like this would be a nice violin to have. The workmanship looks a lot better than that of my sweet old Mirecourt bargain fiddle. I'm not bidding on it, I am just interested in hearing other people's thoughts.

Mary

[oldgeezer]

In ebay speak "Italian labeled" means just what it says. It does not mean that the violin is Italian but only that the violin has a label in it says the violin is of Italian origin. The violin is about as likely to be Italian as any trade instrument with a Strad label in it. The "What can we sell this as?" school of sellers may even remove a real label from a violin made by a known and respected maker whose instruments do not command high prices preferring to sell it unlabelled or with a fake label.

[vlnhunter]

oldgeezer is absolutely right -- the label in an eBay auction is worth about as much as the paper it was run through the laser printer on... but in this case at least, the seller is not making any claim that the label is correct, and the opening bid is certainly right. The problem is not sellers like these -- this listing is no different than what you would find listed in a Tarisio auction (a violin, bearing the label "Leandro Bisiach..."). The problem arises when you have sellers trying to mislead the buyer into paying a huge amount by implying that the instrument is genuine. EDIT: I did just take a second look at the listing title, and the seller does say the violin's Italian, though, which is probably debatable. But even so, the price is still right.

[SSD1229]

I've been looking at eBay listing now for a few days.  I have

compared many pictures posted at Tarisios and on the web.

 Many of these Italian violins seem to be fake, however, some

do look real.  The newer Italian violins might be real.

Has anyone bought a real Italian violin on eBay ever?

[fidleir]

This looks like a well made violin, it is certainly not a Bisiach.I say this with some certainty(even though I can't tell a french violin from a german violin, never mind identify a certain maker) because dealers or knowledgable sellers don't sell fiddles without first having them valued by an expert.In more unscrupulous cases the seller is trying to sell a fake as the real thing.Ebay (which i love browsing) plays on people's greed.or the hope of getting something for nothing.I'm entirely convinced that there are hundreds of fine playing instruments on there irrespective of the labels and claims of sellers.the skill is looking at the quality of wood ,workmanship and varnish if some factory or workshop has invested in this then you usually find they produce a decent fiddle.

[troutabout]

Tred very carefully - it was one of those German sellers that recently had a so-called antique with file marks on the usual wear spots.

[pahdah_hound]

quote:

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Has anyone bought a real Italian violin on eBay ever?

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Yes. I have sold several real Italian violins on eBay. Not a lot, certainly less than 10, but there were several real Italian violins sold on eBay. One sold within the last week. These are not by famous makers, and they often aren't very expenisve violins but they were either modern Italian or older provincial Italian.

The best violins I have sold on eBay are old English and old German.

Jesse

[Jeffrey Holmes]

quote:

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Originally posted by:

doctahg

If it were genuine, then it would sell for tens of thousands of dollars, right? So it must be am imposter. But then what is it? Where do all these violins come from? To my VERY untrained eye, this does not look like one of the horde of German trade violins (I had one.) The edges look well-executed; the purfling is good, with nice sharp bee-stings; the corners themselves are assertive and beautifully finished, not unlike a true Bisiach.

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Mary;

I'm afraid I don't agree with much of what you're describing about the quality of execution... especially the "Q-tip" corners on that particular violin.

I am understanding of your question, however. It's a good one to ask if the fiddle rises to a certain level of interest. Unfortunately, sometimes the most useful answer, once an instrument falls under a certain level, is "it's really nothing...".

[doctahg]

Jeffrey,

Your response is helpful! To me, the violin looks well-made - but as I said, I have almost no experience judging these things. Obviously, your expertise comes from a lifetime of experience, and can't be easily taught, but a critique of a violin like this could be very useful to people like me who are trying to learn more about violins. I would love to see photos of violins accompanied by a detailed analysis of their good and bad points: wood, scroll, varnish, edges, corners, f-holes, etc. Does anything like that exist?

Mary

[pahdah_hound]

quote:

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I would love to see photos of violins accompanied by a detailed analysis of their good and bad points

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Ditto! I would love to see such a thing. Perhaps a real Strad and a good quality copy side by side with all the key points of differation circled and explained. Then we can all be experts.

Jesse

[Jeffrey Holmes]

There are a number of old "ID" threads and "quiz" threads that exist on the pegbox that deal with a number of the issues mentioned... of course, they deal with a lot of other "stuff" as well. I believe a good number of these still have photos attached... some may not.

Honestly, I don't have the time to put together those kinds of threads any longer... Not enough hours in the day.

What's "good" often (not always) has more to do with how the whole instrument "hangs" together (the workmanship and design of the parts relate) rather than the neatness of workmanship. More to do with the integrity of the line than how tightly the pen was held, so to speak.

Leaving the outline and arch out of things, what I see in the instrument that is the subject of this thread is that the ff holes are placed a bit to high on the face & stand stiffly (like solders), the purfling runs out the corners without much definition or contribution to the outline, the pegbox swings a little to far for my taste... and the scroll has a rather proud volute and funny eye (these details don't really relate to the rest of the fiddle; where do these shapes occur elsewhere on the instrument?), and I've already mentioned the corners.

Commerce and practicality is something completely different.. It looks like a perfectly serviceable instrument.

[Ed Shillitoe]

Mary / Jesse:

The Hans Nebel summer workshops include instruction in violin identification (I just posted the link in another thread but here it is again):

http://www.mcla.edu/Academics/...lin_Repair_Workshops/

A reasonable driving distance for you, Jesse!

Hans is very helpful to his students and has an amazing memory. I saw him at Tarisio recently and he remembered everything about me. I was horrified!

Ed

[maestramusica]

I noticed the seller takes only Bank Transfers of funds, AND there looks to be no recourse if the fiddle isn't up to buyer's reasonable expectations. (Sales final, no returns) Rather like a spy movie I recently saw. The I'm guessing that IF it turns out NOT to be as good as the seller makes out, he has only to point to his low starting bid of L25 to "show" he didn't scam deliberately.

[doctahg]

Ed: Thank you for your recommendation of the Hans Nebel workshops. Definitely something I would like to do. I have no aspirations to violin making, but would love to learn basic repairs.

Jeffrey: Oh, dear - I was not suggesting that you should create a violin ID tutorial! I just thought it would be a cool thing!

I may not know much about violins, but I do know my ebay! In ten years of ebay action, I have been burned once and mildly misled a couple of times, but for the most part have been satisfied with what I bought. And a few times, I have lucked out and found a treasure for a very low price. I am not interested in buying this particular violin, although the actual starting bid was a very low L1, not L25! It's now up to L42, still a very cheap price for any violin in playing condition. I don't consider that this seller is dong anything inherently dishonest, unless he or she put in the Bisiach label or knows who did. This seller has a 100% feedback rating. Authentic violin? Genuine feedback? Who knows? It's all part of the fun of ebay!