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Varnish coloration

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Bassbow, looks pretty good this is a good example of the colour you

can easily get with say 50% Nitric acid, much deeper colours can be

had with my process and 90%acid available from Chemistry labs. How

long does it take for a coat to dry, Im exstatic to see so much

interest in Nitric varnish on Maestronet, it deserves more

attention.

 As

to my Bergonzi its still here, hasn;t gotten any worse, I should

say I sort of baiting you naysayers, because the instrument in the

pictures doesn't look that good compared to how good it is in

person, you guys that think you can appraise by pictures, well lets

just say I m not one of them, If I can't hold it in my hands I

can't possibly tell you if an instrument is German French or

Italian, what I can tell you is I look at ebay purchases as a

gamble, and this is one of the ones that payed off, even if its a

German factory made its worth at least 2-3K USD, judging by the

tone, which was exceptional, perhaps the best sounding violin I

have, also in the pics you don't have a clue how well made the

violin is till you see it in youre hand, this one is really well

made, better than what one would expect from the pictures, 50% of

the time the violins turn out to be worse than the pictures seem to

show, watch out for that a lot on ebay, the Haskell arrives

tomorrow, that's the one I thought might be Italian by the

pictures, sincerely Lyndon

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Hi,

thanks, it's touch free after 3 days on direct sunlight and dry

after 2 weeks.

For further coats I'm waiting my new UV box (Also in progress) with

actinic tube suggested me by Mr Lozano at Mondomusica 2007.

Giuseppe

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I am not sure why there is a question of finding pure potassium nitrate. Anything military is going to be first-rate technology at any period in history. Gun powder is 1000 years old, thanks to the Chinese.

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quote:


Originally posted by:
rb_quebec
Hi Melvin, Thanks

for the comment, but what do you think of the varnish procedure

that I've tried.  Too much unnecessary steps at the beginning

(Borax and Water glass.....).  I am now testing the same

varnish in a simplified way and it's also giving good results (A

Potassium nitrite, B clear-yellow coat and C Fry inspired varnish).

Melvin, I would like to hear your opinion about a relatively

dark varnish soaking into the wood.  Is it

preferable to get nice lively flames or is there other

alternatives like tee.  I've seen a nice violin made by

Vuillaume that had a dramatic look because the flames where full

with varnish (I think so

). I find that It's giving a dramatic look to a violin.  A

little bit like the Vincenzo Rugeri in the last strad

magazine. Critics, questions and comments are always welcome.

 I will be out during the next days but will give answers when

I'm back. Richard

................................................................................

.................................................................................

.....

Hi Richard

Sorry not to respond earlier.

I have not rried Borax and water glass but it sounds like a neat

idea..... I'm no chemist but I guess that there must be some

reaction between these two applications??????

I think dark varnish.color coat soaking into wood has

been covered on MN before but no reason not to address the subject

again. The effect will mainly be governed by the consistency of the

vanish and how fast it dries. The effect can vary from great to

disastrous.

Generally the Cremonese seemed to try to stop dark colour coats

from sinking into the wood with some kind of sealer. Some old

Cremonese do seem to show colour varnish penetration into end grain

on maple...maybe more on ribs than backs.....Probably not the norm

though!....Rare to see it on fronts. This is a whole subject in

itself and others are more qualified to answer.

One thing I will say is that oxidation of the flame on maple in old

instruments can give the impression of varnish absorbtion when it

might actually not be the case.

Some makers these days will put colour in the maple flame with

pigment wash etc.

One esteemed Old(ish) Italian maker to look at when considering

dark varnish being absorbed into the wood is Pressenda. He often

used dark red varnishes that sunk into both front and back of his

violins. Often the fronts have a 'negative graining' effect because

of this....They are highly valued instruments even so.

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The pigment wash ... extremely ugly. Please don't waste maple with this. Too many guitarbuilders buy good flamed maple and then ruin it buy using a pigment wash, they call it "popping the flame." All they are doing is ruining any beauty present in the wood so that they can have a guitar with stripes.

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quote:


Originally posted by:
Wm. Johnston
The pigment

wash ... extremely ugly. Please don't waste maple with this. Too

many guitarbuilders buy good flamed maple and then ruin it buy

using a pigment wash, they call it "popping the flame." All they

are doing is ruining any beauty present in the wood so that they

can have a guitar with stripes.

................................................................................

....................................................

It's not something I do.....but I have seen it done very

well.... I think a very subtle well  experimented method is

best...thanks for the warning call

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I have never tried to used Fry's recipe. I did prepare resin using Condax's method: cooking rosin with earth color. If the container is tightly covered, the resin is a heavy "liquid" (like Marmite) after cooling. Heat the same resin in air for a short time, say 2 to 5 minutes, it becomes brittle resin after cooling. The varnish made from this resin is quite dark, but never bright red. I made a child's violin for a friend's daughter 6 years ago (see photo below). As Lyndon Taylor mentioned earlier, the picture turns out quite red. The actural color is more brown with a hint of red.

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Wow,

now I'm able to attach!!!

What you think about my varnish? please be kind. I'm

beginner

This is my first attempt in varnishing after two coats. I was using

resin prepared in Condax way, and acid nitric in Fry/taylor

suggestion. This color obtained without any pigment. It's touch

free after 3 days and dry after 2 weeks.

If I well recall , Condax in his Final Summary Report, state that

the only one pigment founding Strads samples, was red

pigment, Madder Lake...

Giuseppe

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quote:


Originally posted by:
rb_quebec

Hi Michael and the others!

... !


Richard,

Thank you so much for the details.

Now I have time to reply.

At the VSA meeting I asked a friend about Fry varnish and he said he used it for about five years. Then he found that it turned dark. So he stopped using it.

I presume that he encountered the problem Lyndon Taylor discussed: If the nitric acid is not removed by boiling off from the varnish, there will be problems with the varnish decomposing.

I think it is safe to say that the brew must be held well over 100 C to let the acid and water dissipate. I'm still trying to figure out what the optimum temperature is because going too high can turn the batch very dark.

Again, Richard, thanks!

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Hi Taylor,

I can only say that it's surely possible to stain bare wood with a

nitric acid varnish.  It only depends on the intensity of the

color of your nitric acid varnish.  It 's possible to get

little color or a lot of color. using this method.

I am sorry to say that, but it's possible to get deeper colors with

a 53% Nitric acid (See the link below).  Take a look at my

samples.

Here's the link to see the nitric acid that I am using:

"http://kremer-pigmente.de/shopint/PublishedFiles/64520.pdf ">http://kremer-pigmente.de/shopint/PublishedFiles/64520.pdf

Hi Giuseppe,

Nice work for a beginner !  Nice varnish, but maybe not dark

enough and too thick for my taste !

Hi Melvin,

Thanks for your precious comments.

Hi David Tseng,

Where could I get articles about Condax ?  I've unfortunately

never read anything from him.

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Hi Michael,

Thanks for the link.  Might try to read the articles that he

wrote in the future when I find the time for that.  I

don't have enough time to make everything that I would make....

How is your Nitric acid varnish ?  Are you able to send

pictures of your tests ?  Are you satisfied with the results

or would you use other varnishes on your next instruments?

 Just curious about your thoughts!

Hi NewNewbie,

Thanks for the comments and I really think that the nitric acid

varnish is a good start, but surely not the only solution for

varnishing.  It's surely possible to mix this type of varnish

with other things like pigments or lake dye.  I really don't

know if there is a residue of nitric acid in the varnish after

cooking it, but we might get strange reactions in the future

between the varnish and the different additives added to it.

 This is why I am still carefully  testing this varnish.

 A friend of mine made Nitro-varnish mixed with pigments to

get the color that he wanted (The varnish was not red enough).

 The results are OK and the color seems to be the same since

the last 5 years.

Bye,

Richard

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Hi,

Since the starting  resin (rosin) has high acid content,

I think the resin after nitration result very acid.

This may cause the trouble showed in this tread.

Faded color, craquelure, long time to dry and so on.

I notice in this days that my nitric varnish show a light

craquelure... I badly apply two thick coat. You can see a sample on

my preview post.

Giuseppe

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I see several questions raised about the analytical evidence on

Stradivari's varnish.  Here are my two cents:

1.  The use of pigments.  Stradivari used pigments of

fairly large particle sizes (tens of micrometers).  This is

simply observed under light microscopes.  Echard, Condax and

Nagyvary all saw them.  The pigments identified are many:

carbon black, indigo, madder lake, iron earth, orpiment, vermillon.

 There could be more but each violin might not have them all.

 The bare eye can only see particles about 200

micrometers in diameter.  The use of color pigments in

Stradivari's varnish is, I think, beyond doubt.  

2.  The nitrogen content of varnish.  Condax found 7%

nitrogen in the alcohol-insoluble fraction of the varnish.  I

favor the interpretation of its source being protein.

3.  Any analytical evidence against Fry's theory?  I

think nitric acid treatment of oleoresin would lead to both

oxidation and nitration. There is no evidence for this but also no

direct evidence against it.  If we treat venice turpentine

with nitric acid, analyze its mass spectrometry fingerprint, and

compare it to old varnish samples, we might be able to disprove

Fry's theory. The researcher who could do it right now

is J. P. Echard.  I once asked him if he has such plans,

and he said that he has no time to deal with such theories

right now.

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Hi Bruce,

RE pigments. Have the pigments been categorized as to the strata at which they occur? I'm just wondering how much of the pigments might be the result of repair touch up?

Oded

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quote:


Originally posted by:
rb_quebec

Hi Michael,

Thanks for the link. Might try to read the articles that he

wrote in the future when I find the time for that. I

don't have enough time to make everything that I would make....

How is your Nitric acid varnish ? Are you able to send

pictures of your tests ? Are you satisfied with the results

or would you use other varnishes on your next instruments?

Just curious about your thoughts!

... .

Bye,

Richard

I just finished my third batch. I have been changing the temperature to see what I get. Next I will adjust the amount of acid. I suspect that too much acid turns the resins too dark favoring yellow.

My initial reaction to the varnish is that is not a clean color. It reminds me of Fulton varnish - dirty yellow but with nice reddish highlights. I prefer crisp clean vibrant colors.

I am also worried about the stability of this stuff. I know some people claim it is stable for them, but will it be stable for me?

I now find that the reaction is quite controllable as Lyndon claims. I know how to anticipate any problems and keep things stable. It's actually very easy to do.

I will report my results later.

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quote:


Originally posted by:
Oded Kishony
Hi Bruce, RE

pigments. Have the pigments been categorized as to the strata at

which they occur? I'm just wondering how much of the pigments might

be the result of repair touch up? Oded

Yes, one Stradivari sample has been examined this way.  I have

included this information in the updated version of my review.

 You can read the original reference:

"Entzifferung des Stradivari-Tones und allgemeine Geigenforschung

in Texas," Nagyvary, J., Das Musikintrument (1993 Jun-Jul):

107-111

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This Nagyvary reference is very obscure: "Entzifferung des Stradivari-Tones und allgemeine Geigenforschung in Texas," Nagyvary, J., Das Musikintrument (1993 Jun-Jul): 107-111

I have tried to get a copy of the paper and failed. Ferbose has hinted that his reading of this paper was a life changing event--I think we should read it. Wish I knew how to get a copy so I could read it.

Mike D

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Just to update the Bergonzi model saga, ebay #13016366807, we took

the violin to LA for expert appraisal, 1920 German was the

consensus, however two shops seemed far to anxious to purchase the

violin, than i would expect their interest to be for a 1920 German

violin that needed a soundpost patch, either way their interest to

me proved the violin was something special, and I still think there

is credible evidence the violin is up to 100yrs older, in my

opinion, however it seems Im on my own on this one. sincerely

Lyndon

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I should add the ebay seller say it was appraised as 19th century

German not 20th century as three LA shops told me yesterday, anyway

there is clear and irefutable, in my opinion, evidence that the

neck scroll graft is not original to manufacture but done at a

later date, a new neck was fitted to the old scroll by simply

cutting off the scroll of the new neck, and positioning it rather

poorly in the old scroll, the join even has filler wood in the

join, this tells me its probably 1850 or earlier. I know I could

have got $1000 for it fairly easily, but this is one I want to hang

on to, sincerely Lyndon

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