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fiddlefaddle

Varnish coloration

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" font-size: 9.0pt; font-family: Arial; color: black;">Hi Michael
and the others!

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" font-size: 9.0pt; font-family: Arial; color: black;">Please give
me more comments about my results, technique and recipe!

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" font-size: 9.0pt; font-family: Arial; color: black;">Thanks
Michael for you comment.  The varnishing procedure is not the
same depending on where you are looking at on the samples. 
Here’s a list of 3 different processes that I’ve tried
and the results are similar for the color but not for the way the
flames on the maple reacts (See the procedures
below). 

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" font-size: 9.0pt; font-family: Arial; color: black;">I think that
the color of the final varnish is highly determined by the
ground.  I’ve made different tests using different types
of ground coloring material (Nothing, Clear varnish, Dichromate,
Potassium nitrite, etc… and I can get final colors that are
redder, browner or greener but I am still using the same varnish.
 

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" font-size: 9.0pt; font-family: Arial; color: black;">I am not
sure if you are right when you say that you cannot let a dark
varnish soak into the wood because you will get a dirty job.
 I’ve tried it because I wanted to test that since a
long time and it’s not so bad on maple because the flames are
getting a really nice dramatic look with a lot of contrasts. 
I’ve tried that in the PROCESS B (See below) and I am
planning to test a little more in this direction.

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" font-size: 9.0pt; font-family: Arial; color: black;"> 

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" font-size: 9.0pt; font-family: Arial; color: black;">THE
VARNISHING PROCEDURES

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" font-size: 9.0pt; font-family: Arial; color: black;">VARNISHING
PROCESS A

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" font-size: 9.0pt; font-family: Arial; color: black;">(The flames
are not really apparent and the ground is not dark
enough)

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" font-size: 9.0pt; font-family: Arial; color: black;">1 coat of
Water mixed with 5% Borax

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" font-size: 9.0pt; font-family: Arial; color: black;">1 coat of
water mixed with 3% Kaliwasserglas (Potassium silicate - Water
glass)

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" font-size: 9.0pt; font-family: Arial; color: black;">1 coat of a
simple almost clear colophony oil varnish (a little yellow
varnish)

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" font-size: 9.0pt; font-family: Arial; color: black;">4 coats of
oil varnish inspired by Fry’s method

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" font-size: 9.0pt; font-family: Arial; color: black;"> 

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" font-size: 9.0pt; font-family: Arial; color: black;">VARNISHING
PROCESS B

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" font-size: 9.0pt; font-family: Arial; color: black;">(The flames
are really nice but this method would give a bad result on
spruce)

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" font-size: 9.0pt; font-family: Arial; color: black;">1 coat of
Water mixed with 5% Borax

" font-family: 'Times New Roman'; font-size: 12.0pt; margin-right: 0cm; margin-bottom: .0001pt; margin-left: 0cm; margin-top: 0cm;">
" font-size: 9.0pt; font-family: Arial; color: black;">1 coat of
water mixed with 3% Kaliwasserglas (Potassium silicate - Water
glass)

" font-family: 'Times New Roman'; font-size: 12.0pt; margin-right: 0cm; margin-bottom: .0001pt; margin-left: 0cm; margin-top: 0cm;">
" font-size: 9.0pt; font-family: Arial; color: black;">1 coat of a
simple dark colophony oil varnish (Simple brown
varnish) 

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" font-size: 9.0pt; font-family: Arial; color: black;">2 coats of a
simple almost clear colophony oil varnish (a little yellow
varnish)

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" font-size: 9.0pt; font-family: Arial; color: black;">3 coats of
oil varnish inspired by Fry’s method

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" font-size: 9.0pt; font-family: Arial; color: black;"> 

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" font-size: 9.0pt; font-family: Arial; color: black;">VARNISHING
PROCESS C

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" font-size: 9.0pt; font-family: Arial; color: black;">(Nice Flames
and works on Spruce)

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" font-size: 9.0pt; font-family: Arial; color: black;">1 coat of
Water mixed with 5% Borax

" font-family: 'Times New Roman'; font-size: 12.0pt; margin-right: 0cm; margin-bottom: .0001pt; margin-left: 0cm; margin-top: 0cm;">
" font-size: 9.0pt; font-family: Arial; color: black;">1 coat of
water mixed with 3% Kaliwasserglas (Potassium silicate - Water
glass)

" font-family: 'Times New Roman'; font-size: 12.0pt; margin-right: 0cm; margin-bottom: .0001pt; margin-left: 0cm; margin-top: 0cm;">
" font-size: 9.0pt; font-family: Arial; color: black;">1 coat of
water with Potassium Nitrite (Highly concentrated (15%-30%) but
Sorry I don’t know exactly)

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" font-size: 9.0pt; font-family: Arial; color: black;">2 coats of a
simple almost clear colophony oil varnish (a little yellow
varnish)

" font-family: 'Times New Roman'; font-size: 12.0pt; margin-right: 0cm; margin-bottom: .0001pt; margin-left: 0cm; margin-top: 0cm;">
" font-size: 9.0pt; font-family: Arial; color: black;">2 coats of
oil varnish inspired by Fry’s method

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" font-size: 9.0pt; font-family: Arial; color: black;"> 

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" font-size: 9.0pt; font-family: Arial; color: black;"> 

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" font-size: 9.0pt; font-family: Arial; color: black;">THE
VARNISH

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" font-size: 9.0pt; font-family: Arial; color: black;"> 

" font-family: 'Times New Roman'; font-size: 12.0pt; margin-right: 0cm; margin-bottom: .0001pt; margin-left: 0cm; margin-top: 0cm;">
" font-size: 9.0pt; font-family: Arial; color: black;">The varnish
that I’ve used inspired by the Fry method is going like
this:

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" font-size: 9.0pt; font-family: Arial; color: black;"> 

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" font-size: 9.0pt; font-family: Arial; color: black;">Cooking the
following ingredients during 1 hour at approximately 200 Celcius
grad

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" font-size: 9.0pt; font-family: Arial; color: black;">-30gr Dark
Colophony

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" font-size: 9.0pt; font-family: Arial; color: black;">-10gr
Venetian Turpentine

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" font-size: 9.0pt; font-family: Arial; color: black;"> 

" font-family: 'Times New Roman'; font-size: 12.0pt; margin-right: 0cm; margin-bottom: .0001pt; margin-left: 0cm; margin-top: 0cm;">
" font-size: 9.0pt; font-family: Arial; color: black;">Get the mix
at approximately 110 Celcius grad

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" font-size: 9.0pt; font-family: Arial; color: black;"> 

" font-family: 'Times New Roman'; font-size: 12.0pt; margin-right: 0cm; margin-bottom: .0001pt; margin-left: 0cm; margin-top: 0cm;">
" font-size: 9.0pt; font-family: Arial; color: black;">Add the
following ingredients

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" font-size: 9.0pt; font-family: Arial; color: black;">-10gr
Mastic

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" font-size: 9.0pt; font-family: Arial; color: black;">-15gr
Turpentine

" font-family: 'Times New Roman'; font-size: 12.0pt; margin-right: 0cm; margin-bottom: .0001pt; margin-left: 0cm; margin-top: 0cm;">
" font-size: 9.0pt; font-family: Arial; color: black;">Let the mix
get liquid

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" font-size: 9.0pt; font-family: Arial; color: black;"> 

" font-family: 'Times New Roman'; font-size: 12.0pt; margin-right: 0cm; margin-bottom: .0001pt; margin-left: 0cm; margin-top: 0cm;">
" font-size: 9.0pt; font-family: Arial; color: black;">Add the
following DANGEROUS ingredient DROP BY
DROP

" font-family: 'Times New Roman'; font-size: 12.0pt; margin-right: 0cm; margin-bottom: .0001pt; margin-left: 0cm; margin-top: 0cm;">
" font-size: 9.0pt; font-family: Arial; color: black;">-2gr Nitric
Acid (HNO3)

" font-family: 'Times New Roman'; font-size: 12.0pt; margin-right: 0cm; margin-bottom: .0001pt; margin-left: 0cm; margin-top: 0cm;">
" font-size: 9.0pt; font-family: Arial; color: black;">PLEASE GET
INFOS ABOUT THIS PRODUCT BEFORE USING IT.  IT’S A
DANGEROUS PRODUCT AND YOU NEED PROCTECTION WHEN USING
IT." font-size: 9.0pt; font-family: Arial; color: black;">  I
know Michael that you’ve already used that product and that
you know how to use it.  It’s only for the other
readers.

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" font-size: 9.0pt; font-family: Arial; color: black;"> 

" font-family: 'Times New Roman'; font-size: 12.0pt; margin-right: 0cm; margin-bottom: .0001pt; margin-left: 0cm; margin-top: 0cm;">
" font-size: 9.0pt; font-family: Arial; color: black;">Add the
following ingredient and let cook a little bit

" font-family: 'Times New Roman'; font-size: 12.0pt; margin-right: 0cm; margin-bottom: .0001pt; margin-left: 0cm; margin-top: 0cm;">
" font-size: 9.0pt; font-family: Arial; color: black;">-41gr
Linseed oil

" font-family: 'Times New Roman'; font-size: 12.0pt; margin-right: 0cm; margin-bottom: .0001pt; margin-left: 0cm; margin-top: 0cm;">
" font-size: 9.0pt; font-family: Arial; color: black;"> 

" font-family: 'Times New Roman'; font-size: 12.0pt; margin-right: 0cm; margin-bottom: .0001pt; margin-left: 0cm; margin-top: 0cm;">
" font-size: 9.0pt; font-family: Arial; color: black;">Add the
following DANGEROUS ingredient DROP BY
DROP

" font-family: 'Times New Roman'; font-size: 12.0pt; margin-right: 0cm; margin-bottom: .0001pt; margin-left: 0cm; margin-top: 0cm;">
" font-size: 9.0pt; font-family: Arial; color: black;">-9gr Nitric
Acid (HNO3)

" font-family: 'Times New Roman'; font-size: 12.0pt; margin-right: 0cm; margin-bottom: .0001pt; margin-left: 0cm; margin-top: 0cm;">
" font-size: 9.0pt; font-family: Arial; color: black;">I
REPEAT!  PLEASE GET INFOS ABOUT THIS PRODUCT BEFORE USING
IT.  IT’S A DANGEROUS PRODUCT AND YOU NEED PROCTECTION
WHEN USING IT.

" font-family: 'Times New Roman'; font-size: 12.0pt; margin-right: 0cm; margin-bottom: .0001pt; margin-left: 0cm; margin-top: 0cm;">
" font-size: 9.0pt; font-family: Arial; color: black;">Let Cook at
approximately 150-200 Celcius grad

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" font-size: 9.0pt; font-family: Arial; color: black;"> 

" font-family: 'Times New Roman'; font-size: 12.0pt; margin-right: 0cm; margin-bottom: .0001pt; margin-left: 0cm; margin-top: 0cm;">
" font-size: 9.0pt; font-family: Arial; color: black;">Let cook and
make regularly a check with a drop of varnish to check if you get a
nice string (This test is used by Bease to check if the varnish
will dry or not).  When you get a 10-15cm long string it means
that your varnish is finished and will dry.

" font-family: 'Times New Roman'; font-size: 12.0pt; margin-right: 0cm; margin-bottom: .0001pt; margin-left: 0cm; margin-top: 0cm;">
" font-size: 9.0pt; font-family: Arial; color: black;"> 

" font-family: 'Times New Roman'; font-size: 12.0pt; margin-right: 0cm; margin-bottom: .0001pt; margin-left: 0cm; margin-top: 0cm;">
" font-size: 9.0pt; font-family: Arial; color: black;">Remove the
varnish from the heat plate and let the temperature
sink.

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" font-size: 9.0pt; font-family: Arial; color: black;"> 

" font-family: 'Times New Roman'; font-size: 12.0pt; margin-right: 0cm; margin-bottom: .0001pt; margin-left: 0cm; margin-top: 0cm;">
" font-size: 9.0pt; font-family: Arial; color: black;">Add the
following ingredient

" font-family: 'Times New Roman'; font-size: 12.0pt; margin-right: 0cm; margin-bottom: .0001pt; margin-left: 0cm; margin-top: 0cm;">
" font-size: 9.0pt; font-family: Arial; color: black;">-19gr
Turpentine

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" font-size: 9.0pt; font-family: Arial; color: black;"> 

" font-family: 'Times New Roman'; font-size: 12.0pt; margin-right: 0cm; margin-bottom: .0001pt; margin-left: 0cm; margin-top: 0cm;">
" font-size: 9.0pt; font-family: Arial; color: black;">Mix
everything well and the varnish is finished!

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" font-size: 9.0pt; font-family: Arial; color: black;"> 

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" font-size: 9.0pt; font-family: Arial; color: black;"> 

" font-family: 'Times New Roman'; font-size: 12.0pt; margin-right: 0cm; margin-bottom: .0001pt; margin-left: 0cm; margin-top: 0cm;">
" font-size: 9.0pt; font-family: Arial; color: black;">Bye
bye

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" font-size: 9.0pt; font-family: Arial; color: black;"> 

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" font-size: 9.0pt; font-family: Arial; color: black;">Richard

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" font-size: 9.0pt; font-family: Arial; color: black;"> 

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quote:


Originally posted by:
rb_quebec

" font-size: 12.0pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman'; margin-bottom: .0001pt; margin-right: 0cm; margin-left: 0cm; margin-top: 0cm;">

" font-size: 9.0pt; font-family: Arial; color: black;">......

style=

" font-size: 9.0pt; font-family: Arial; color: black;">(Nothing,

Clear varnish, Dichromate, Potassium nitrite,

etc…
and I can get final colors that areredder........

 


Sorry but a strange problem occured.  You are supposed to

read

" font-size: 9pt; font-family: Arial; color: black;">.....(Nothing,

Clear varnish, Dichromate, Potassium nitrite, etc) and I can

get final colors that are redder.....

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Hi Melvin,

Thanks for the comment, but what do you think of the varnish

procedure that I've tried.  Too much unnecessary steps at the

beginning (Borax and Water glass.....).  I am now testing the

same varnish in a simplified way and it's also giving good results

(A Potassium nitrite, B clear-yellow coat and C Fry inspired

varnish).

Melvin, I would like to hear your opinion about a relatively

dark varnish soaking into the wood.  Is it

preferable to get nice lively flames or is there other

alternatives like tee.  I've seen a nice violin made by

Vuillaume that had a dramatic look because the flames where full

with varnish (I think so ).  I find that It's giving a

dramatic look to a violin.  A little bit like the

Vincenzo Rugeri in the last strad magazine.

Critics, questions and comments are always welcome.  I

will be out during the next days but will give answers when I'm

back.

Richard

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With the nitric acid varnish its not always necessary to use a

clear ground coat, as 1 coloured coat on bare wood does not stain

the wood that much as one coat has only so much colour it requires

multiple coats to get the deep colour, I just bought a violin on

ebay with a fake german label that appears to be not only Italian,

but to my eye a spectacularly good nitric acid varnish, ive even

been comparing it under a magnifying glass to my varnish it matches

up, clumps of colour surrounded by lighter areas, no pigment

particles visible, Kinda like the nitric coloured some parts more

than others, also its the same as my deepest colour nitric under UV

which is sortof brick brown almost black. The violin

looks a lot like Carlo Bergonzi, but the liners are not inset into

the willow blocks but angled in, which is almost as good, the

inside is coated with something that stains the wood a greyish

colour and it looks pinkish purplish under UV light(the inside),

Ive seen this purplish UV interior coat on other unaltered violins

I thought were Italian. The neck scroll graft is genuine and not

original to manufacture, like an 1800s fake could be.

The ebay number is 130163366897 could

somone savy with such please post a link for it to ebay, I don't

know how to do that, it would mean a lot to me if someone could do

that, sincerely Lyndon  ps the colour in real life is much

nicer than the pics, not so garish a red as the pictures, the side

view of the top in the case is about the closest to how it really

looks

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Richard I like youre method very similar to what I used to use

until I developed the method of nitric treating raw resins before

the turp or linseed is added, this allows even deeper colours and

gets rid of all the acid through the boiling process before the

turps is added, it doesn't work with venice turps though, too

flammable for this process, sincerely Lyndon

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My mistake its ebay Number  130183366807. from what IVe

learned it can;t be a Bergonzi because the internal construction is

different it could be an 1800 circa Italian or French copy of

Bergonzi, please don't say German, according to one expert in LA

over 95% of my violins are German, sorry for the mistake, my

computa keybaord is not very well lit, sincerely Lyndon

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quote:


Originally posted by:
Mike_Danielson
My Fulton

varnish colors have never been red enough for me, and I always have

to add some alizarin crimson. To get the desired density of color,

I have to use a glaze method with earth pigments which are applied

immediately over the ground. The color of the Fulton varnish,

though it appears to be black in the bottle, is not dark enough

when applied as a thin coating. Mike D

Some say that this is the reason why Cinnabar has been detected in

Stradivari's varnish.

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David thanks so much for posting the link, its hard to say much

about the varnish from the pictures, in person its a considerably

more subdued red brown, not as bright red as the pictures, but the

instrument is very interesting, is it an original copy of

 Bergonzi from the late 1700s or early 1800s or is it just a

knock off built around 1900, the jury is still out on this one, im

taking it to some experts in LA Ill get back to you on what they

say, sincerely Lyndon

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Andres,

Ditto...(I imagine you are hinting that although the location of Cremona can be established reliably and fairly easily, some are still InSearchOf it - and finding it in odd places?)

I'm wondering also what an "original copy" is - kind of reminds me of the British pizzeria which advertised its product as "a true imitation of the American copy of the Italian original".

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I looked at the violin last night and then again just now to be sure that I had looked at the right violin. What in the world makes you think that this is even a Bergonzi copy much less a real one? I don't see anything Bergonzi-like about it. The scroll is completely wrong and the f-holes aren't placed right to start with. My Bergonzi influenced violins look more like a Bergonzi copy than this and I take a LOT of liberty with the model.

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For a good idea of what a Bergonzi copy should look like go to Tet Kimura's website. He made a nice violin that is clearly a Bergonzi copy and you don't have to squint and turn your head sideways to see the resemblance.

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I searched Bergonzis on Cozio archive, there was only one listed

the size of mine 357mm and it had the fholes in the same place, the

top of the bottom eye, substantially above the purfling at the

corner, certainly the fholes on mine are closer to Bergonzi than an

other Italian maker in the Hamma book, Bergonzis varied widely and

i felt this one was within the variation of his instruments,

especially the scroll and the fholes, anyway weve already

established it not a Bergonzi by the internal construction, what do

you think it is??? sincerely Lyndon

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" line-height: normal; margin-bottom: .0001pt;"> 

" line-height: normal; margin-bottom: .0001pt;">" font-size: 12.0pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman,serif'; color: black;">
Hi all,

" line-height: normal; margin-bottom: .0001pt;">" font-size: 12.0pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman,serif'; color: black;">
Thanks Melving. (I can’t post with attachment)

" line-height: normal; margin-bottom: .0001pt;">" font-size: 12.0pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman,serif'; color: black;">
I’d like ask you everyone, when you have chosen your own
varnish as you have had the recipes?

" line-height: normal; margin-bottom: .0001pt;">" font-size: 12.0pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman,serif'; color: black;">
Someone has you suggested?

" line-height: normal; margin-bottom: .0001pt;">" font-size: 12.0pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman,serif'; color: black;">
I instead have read your posts on MN and you have suggested
me...

" line-height: normal; margin-bottom: .0001pt;">" font-size: 12.0pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman,serif'; color: black;">
I have much read, sure, old recipes, as you have made also, I guess
that when we are reading in some old recipes, as an example
turpentine gum, we are thinking ah, turpentine gum, and in our mind
we see the green or red box of the turpentine gum that we have seen
in the shelf of the art supplies store. Or "acqua forte",
(literally Strong water) and we are thinking ah, nitric acid, and
so on. But is not therefore simple, in the past turpentine gum it
was difficult to obtain, and to prepare, nitric acid it was
prepared in different ways:

" line-height: normal; text-indent: -18.0pt; margin-bottom: .0001pt;">
" font-size: 12.0pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman,serif'; color: black;">
1)" font-family: 'Times New Roman'; font-style: normal; line-height: normal; font-weight: normal; font-size: 7.0pt; font-variant: normal;">
  " color: black; font-family: 'Times New Roman,serif'; font-size: 12.0pt;">
Salnitro (potassium nitrate), Alum, vetriolo romano (Iron Sulfate),
Sodium Cloride.

" line-height: normal; text-indent: -18.0pt; margin-bottom: .0001pt;">
" color: black; font-family: 'Times New Roman,serif'; font-size: 12.0pt;">
2)" font-family: 'Times New Roman'; font-style: normal; line-height: normal; font-weight: normal; font-size: 7.0pt; font-variant: normal;">
  " color: black; font-family: 'Times New Roman,serif'; font-size: 12.0pt;">
Salnitro, Alum, Arsenic

" line-height: normal; text-indent: -18.0pt; margin-bottom: .0001pt;">
" color: black; font-family: 'Times New Roman,serif'; font-size: 12.0pt;">
3)" font-family: 'Times New Roman'; font-style: normal; line-height: normal; font-weight: normal; font-size: 7.0pt; font-variant: normal;">
  " color: black; font-family: 'Times New Roman,serif'; font-size: 12.0pt;">
Salnitro, Alum, sale armoniaco (Ammonium Chloride). Etc.

" line-height: normal; margin-bottom: .0001pt;">" color: black; font-family: 'Times New Roman,serif'; font-size: 12.0pt;">
 

" line-height: normal; margin-bottom: .0001pt;">" color: black; font-family: 'Times New Roman,serif,serif'; font-size: 12.0pt;">
Now it could think: ah, potassium nitrate I can buy it in that
chemistry shop, ah, ammonium chloride I can buy in other store. In
old Time all it was made in empirical ways and with raw materials
that always were impure. As an example potassium nitrate was
extract from the earth where the cows or the horses urinate many
time, or the earth under manure pile, was put in water let to put
down to the bottom and the water was filtered  and resulting
of “potassium nitrate” salt enriched.style=
" color: black; font-family: 'Times New Roman,serif,serif'; font-size: 12.0pt;">
Sure in the past have been using the nitric acid, but this was a
lot different from what we can buy today.

" line-height: normal; margin-bottom: .0001pt;">" color: black; font-family: 'Times New Roman,serif'; font-size: 12.0pt;">
 

" line-height: normal; margin-bottom: .0001pt;">" color: black; font-family: 'Times New Roman,serif'; font-size: 12.0pt;">
I am a beginner, and I’m trying the Fry/Taylor/Giuseppe
Varnish and below (Melving posted), You can see my absolute first
attempt (work in progress) after two coats. You are kind,
please.

" line-height: normal; margin-bottom: .0001pt;">" color: black; font-family: 'Times New Roman,serif'; font-size: 12.0pt;">
Giuseppe

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quote:


Originally posted by:
Jacob
I myself see more

bratwurst than pizza in that violin. There is such a thing as good

bratwurst.

Funny now that you should mention that:

"http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20071031/od_uk_nm/oukoe_uk_germany_bratwurst">

http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20071031/od_uk_...rmany_bratwurst

Nice looking varnish BassBow40.

And thanks for the nice post Melving, sorry about the mistake.

Thanks for correcting me.

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quote:


Originally posted by:
rb_quebec
Please look at the

two pictures of the same sample and tell me what you think

about it.   Richard

I like frame 7 of 15 the best.  You can see the flame in the

wood the best in it.  Nice post!

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