Fake maple flaming?

[martin swan]

13 hours ago, MikeV said:

Ignoring the flame, does it look like good work?  What can someone look for to determine violin quality?

Are you asking about quality of workmanship?

Or about quality of sound?

Or both ....?

[MikeV]

1 hour ago, martin swan said:

Are you asking about quality of workmanship?

Or about quality of sound?

Or both ....?

Ultimately I'm looking for quality of sound.  I was hoping it would be possible to determine this by inspecting the violin workmanship.  Are these two qualities mutually exclusive?  I expect there has to be some level of overlap.

[sospiri]

58 minutes ago, MikeV said:

Ultimately I'm looking for quality of sound.  I was hoping it would be possible to determine this by inspecting the violin workmanship.  Are these two qualities mutually exclusive?  I expect there has to be some level of overlap.

At a recent auction, I played two violins, one with beautiful workmansip that sounded awful, like a screecking cat, and another that sounded wonderful but was not anywhere near the same standard of woodworking skill. The bidding went crazy online for this wonderful sounding fiddle.

There should be some sort of overlap between sound and workmanship, but it really depends if the builder or builders are more woodworkers or musicians? If they are both, then you have the perfect instrument.

If you are buying a first time intrument for yourself or your child, you deserve something that sounds good and is easy to play, everyone does.

 

[Violadamore]

4 hours ago, sospiri said:

Sound and playability. Some cheap and nasty vilolins look very nice on the outside, but inside they are roughly carved and some of them don't have corner blocks, which you can see by looking through the f holes in a good light. This takes a bit of practice.

Some old Chinese violins have all 4 corner blocks but are very roughly gouged underneath the top plate and some old German violins are roughly gouged with no corner blocks or only two.

So you can't go by looks. As Conor says, cheap ones can look very beautiful.

You can buy some very well made new Chinese violins on ebay for littly over $200 including postage. They look good and sound good because they are very well made inside and out. These are perfect for someone to learn on and avoid the frustrations of trying to play something that can't or won't make a good sound. The only problem with these violins is that the bridge is a bit high which makes it harder to play. It's easy to cut them down by a few millimeters if you do it carefully.

 

Like!  Respect! Hear! Hear!

I have one of the early spectacular custom Chinese from before their prices skyrocketed.  With the proper set up I gave it, it performs like a bel canto soprano, and I couldn't do better for 1000 times the price I paid originally.  It totally changed my attitude on the darned things.  That said, I got amazingly lucky.

[martin swan]

3 hours ago, MikeV said:

Ultimately I'm looking for quality of sound.  I was hoping it would be possible to determine this by inspecting the violin workmanship.  Are these two qualities mutually exclusive?  I expect there has to be some level of overlap.

OK.

I would say here is no way of judging the quality of sound by looking at a violin, though with many years' experience a few positive and negative traits stand out.

I would regard the presence or otherwise of corner blocks to be irrelevant,  but there are things which would lead me to dismiss a violin. On the other hand, it depends what your definition of good sound is - if you are a modest player then probably ease of tone production is the most important thing, if you are a trad player (particularly of Irish music) then a full dark sound with crisp attack is what you will prefer, if you are a Juillard graduate doing auditions then clarity, power and stiffness are what's required, if you are a section player in an opera pit then good tone at very low dynamics are paramount, if you play concertos in front of a national orchestra then you need volume, volume, volume (and an absence of quirkiness).

So, once you have determined what quality of sound you are after, then certain aspects of the visual appearance become relevant - arching, wood grain, size of f-holes. But if you are buying something to re-sell, you also have to accommodate the aesthetic prejudices of your buyers ...

[Violadamore]

19 minutes ago, martin swan said:

OK.

I would say here is no way of judging the quality of sound by looking at a violin.

.

Naaah, Martin, of course there is.  You judge it by the soloist attached to it in the video.  Mostly works best for Strads, GDG's, a Vuillaume I know of, and at least one fiddle by Don Noon.

[David Burgess]

4 hours ago, MikeV said:

Ultimately I'm looking for quality of sound.  I was hoping it would be possible to determine this by inspecting the violin workmanship.  Are these two qualities mutually exclusive?  I expect there has to be some level of overlap.

Not mutually exclusive, but not mutually inclusive either.

Ideally, one can find a violin which includes both.

Martin Swan and Violadamore put up some really good thoughts.

[sospiri]

21 hours ago, Violadamore said:

Like!  Respect! Hear! Hear!

I have one of the early spectacular custom Chinese from before their prices skyrocketed.  With the proper set up I gave it, it performs like a bel canto soprano, and I couldn't do better for 1000 times the price I paid originally.  It totally changed my attitude on the darned things.  That said, I got amazingly lucky.

Thanks Violadamore. I'm glad I'm not the only one here who loves some of the Chinese instruments. I think there must be a lot of very highly skilled luthiers in China now? And if they ever learn the Cremonese  varnish secrets, who knows....???

Maybe some of them are lurking here looking for clues?

 

[Violadamore]

2 hours ago, sospiri said:

Thanks Violadamore. I'm glad I'm not the only one here who loves some of the Chinese instruments. I think there must be a lot of very highly skilled luthiers in China now? And if they ever learn the Cremonese  varnish secrets, who knows....???

Maybe some of them are lurking here looking for clues?

 

Having dealt with them for years and years, I'd say that clueless Chinese resellers are still in the majority, but their production sector has improved remarkably in only the last 10-15 years or so.  The problems I've had have been with the hordes of middlemen who all seem to have been exposed to some Chinese equivalent of "Get Rich Quick In Mail Order Merchandising" seminars.  Nearly all of them claim to own production facilities, and over 95% are lying like rugs.  Note well that this isn't confined to violins, it's an across-the-board phenomenon when currently dealing with the mainland Chinese directly no matter what you are buying.  It becomes important where it impacts base prices, delivery schedules, and adherence to specifications, particularly on custom orders, which many of them offer, and few to none execute with any reliability, because the bozo you're dealing with is in, say, Shanghai, but the actual factory or warehouse is way across the country, where the merchant's email is just one of hundreds clogging the factory manager's inbox.  One of the things you can never get these folks to do is "Look at it before you ship it, and make sure it's right" (or answer questions specific to a single, unique, hand-made item), because they can't.  All they ever see is a stock catalog photograph, and seldom come within a hundred miles of the actual item.

That warning given, Chinese quality has improved, at least for those of us who know whom to work with to get what you want.  When you can get responses like "Yeah, it's on my desk, what ya want to know about it?", instead of "The dog ate my homework" excuses, one hasn't had any problems.

The mystery Chinese varnish which puzzled so many for so long is urushiol-based cashew varnish, not nitrocellulose or anything.  It does a good job, but is very hard, and difficult to retouch with anything else.  I doubt they're very interested in Strad's secrets, which would be ill-suited to volume production.  Certain makers' CNC cutter geometries, OTOH............

[sospiri]

I bought three Chinese violins last year. Two from the same company which I love, although I don't love the varnish, but then I super picky about that, and one which was very well made and finished, but with a cellulose laqueur which makes such a dreadful din that I find it unplayable. At first I thought it was my playing and I would get used to it, but now I'm thinking of committing the unthinkable MN faux pas of re-varnishing it? Does the fact that it's not old and non European or American, make this acceptable?

[Violadamore]

9 minutes ago, sospiri said:

I bought three Chinese violins last year. Two from the same company which I love, although I don't love the varnish, but then I super picky about that, and one which was very well made and finished, but with a cellulose laqueur which makes such a dreadful din that I find it unplayable. At first I thought it was my playing and I would get used to it, but now I'm thinking of committing the unthinkable MN faux pas of re-varnishing it? Does the fact that it's not old and non European or American, make this acceptable?

Not telling anyone would help.

What makes you think it's the varnish instead of some other factor?

[sospiri]

12 minutes ago, Violadamore said:

Not telling anyone would help.

What makes you think it's the varnish instead of some other factor?

I'm defiant.

As for the varnish, see Don Noon's iron rosinate thread.

[thirteenthsteph]

Now this is some real flamed maple! Top quality!

http://www.ebay.com/itm/VIOLINS-NEW-4-4-FULL-SIZE-BIG-MAPLE-FLAMMED-BACK-BEAUTIFUL-MODEL-BF-/302263508814?hash=item46604f1f4e:g:CzwAAOSwxu5ZEN3p 

[carl1961]

18 minutes ago, thirteenthsteph said:

Now this is some real flamed maple! Top quality!

http://www.ebay.com/itm/VIOLINS-NEW-4-4-FULL-SIZE-BIG-MAPLE-FLAMMED-BACK-BEAUTIFUL-MODEL-BF-/302263508814?hash=item46604f1f4e:g:CzwAAOSwxu5ZEN3p 

a lot of work to paint those flames!

[Mason]

That looks like zebra wood or something similar, but the grain is oriented perpendicular to how it should be. Not painted flames as far as I can see on my phone.

I'd bet the neck angle changes more dramatically with seasonal changes. Good luck to whoever buys that. 

[JoeDeF]

HI Mason,

It pretty much has to be painted on; look at how it stops at the edge (very visible in at least three of the pictures).  Real flame is a perturbation in the growth pattern/fiber direction in the wood, and would be visible from the edge (though it would look different since the edge is more or less perpendicular to the back and would show different aspects of the fiber pattern).

 

(Edit) In the electric guitar world, there are nearly paper-thin veneers that are sometimes pressed onto the curved body of the instrument for looks (and in the cheapest ones, a printed piece of paper is used as a substitute for the veneer).  Though it might be possible to do something like that in a violin, that technique doesn't seem to have been used here.  I just wanted to point out in this edit that someone who really wanted to make a very thin layer of real flame stop at the edge could do so (though why or if they might want to, I don't know).

[morgana]

Flamed maple is quarter cut maple log from higher up the tree. Bear claw maple wood is sycamore. There are ways to use scrapers. There are many types of ways to pelt the maple, or sycamore once quarter sawn, to make the ribs, which, annoyingly are brittle once plaining, using the same log from the same tree, needs soaking, once stripping, billeting the heartwood is cut to get depth of flame, it's not really quarter cut it's a 27 degree angle. Many splits can occur in that tight angle. Many fools on here think a deep flame on the ribs are as important aesthetically. Over time, they split. Scrapers used, under oil, bring out the flame. I have ribs that Stradivari would have. Because he knew that the fist cut process of the ribs at a 27 degree angled wedge of maple, before sap rising time of year usually between Mid January to end of January early February, using above methods of cutting a large enough limb second part of the arms of the tree, which are straighter than the lower thirds and just above and and another between the crotch will plank better of the killed tree standing by stripping of the lower bowl bark in the October.

a tree dies quick if it loses enough bark.

Bringing out the flaming on tight hardwood like this is done by good knowledge and a good open tree, and a good surgeon. Oh and a strong lumber man, or woman, a horse, a sand belt and sharp tools. Wood splits no matter how dense it is if it is not stored correctly, cut from the bough correctly, and no ammount of fake flaming makes any violin look pretty.

Sorry I cannot show any photos but I can't even upload a message on here.

Just getting pissed now

[Wood Butcher]

9 hours ago, morgana said:

Flamed maple is quarter cut maple log from higher up the tree. Bear claw maple wood is sycamore. There are ways to use scrapers. There are many types of ways to pelt the maple, or sycamore once quarter sawn, to make the ribs, which, annoyingly are brittle once plaining, using the same log from the same tree, needs soaking, once stripping, billeting the heartwood is cut to get depth of flame, it's not really quarter cut it's a 27 degree angle. Many splits can occur in that tight angle. Many fools on here think a deep flame on the ribs are as important aesthetically. Over time, they split. Scrapers used, under oil, bring out the flame. I have ribs that Stradivari would have. Because he knew that the fist cut process of the ribs at a 27 degree angled wedge of maple, before sap rising time of year usually between Mid January to end of January early February, using above methods of cutting a large enough limb second part of the arms of the tree, which are straighter than the lower thirds and just above and and another between the crotch will plank better of the killed tree standing by stripping of the lower bowl bark in the October.

a tree dies quick if it loses enough bark.

Bringing out the flaming on tight hardwood like this is done by good knowledge and a good open tree, and a good surgeon. Oh and a strong lumber man, or woman, a horse, a sand belt and sharp tools. Wood splits no matter how dense it is if it is not stored correctly, cut from the bough correctly, and no ammount of fake flaming makes any violin look pretty.

Sorry I cannot show any photos but I can't even upload a message on here.

Just getting pissed now

And yet you managed to post this nonsense. 

[brokenbow]

I have seen quite regularly student grade Hungarian violins (made in 1970s?) with two piece backs that had fake flaming on them. The flaming was sprayed on with some sort of masking, but so poorly done that the faux flame from one side that should have stopped at the middle seam, slightly overlapped onto the opposite side of the two-piece back. Dead give away!

I have seen fake flaming on old German violins that must have been done with something chemical, as the wood was burned such that there was a groove in the wood and the varnish that was originally on the top of the "flame" had completely deteriorated. Or perhaps....

I had been told by a luthier who had trained in Germany back in the 1950s that some of the faux flaming was done by tieing string/rope around the backs and burning the rope. 

[sospiri]

12 hours ago, morgana said:

Flamed maple is quarter cut maple log from higher up the tree. Bear claw maple wood is sycamore. There are ways to use scrapers. There are many types of ways to pelt the maple, or sycamore once quarter sawn, to make the ribs, which, annoyingly are brittle once plaining, using the same log from the same tree, needs soaking, once stripping, billeting the heartwood is cut to get depth of flame, it's not really quarter cut it's a 27 degree angle. Many splits can occur in that tight angle. Many fools on here think a deep flame on the ribs are as important aesthetically. Over time, they split. Scrapers used, under oil, bring out the flame. I have ribs that Stradivari would have. Because he knew that the fist cut process of the ribs at a 27 degree angled wedge of maple, before sap rising time of year usually between Mid January to end of January early February, using above methods of cutting a large enough limb second part of the arms of the tree, which are straighter than the lower thirds and just above and and another between the crotch will plank better of the killed tree standing by stripping of the lower bowl bark in the October.

a tree dies quick if it loses enough bark.

Bringing out the flaming on tight hardwood like this is done by good knowledge and a good open tree, and a good surgeon. Oh and a strong lumber man, or woman, a horse, a sand belt and sharp tools. Wood splits no matter how dense it is if it is not stored correctly, cut from the bough correctly, and no ammount of fake flaming makes any violin look pretty.

Sorry I cannot show any photos but I can't even upload a message on here.

Just getting pissed now

 

Marks outa ten?

 

Eleven.

 

 

 

[cardi]

I know I am a bit late on this topic. I am also wondering whether the flame of this violin is real.

For me the flame does not seem to interact with the grain, making me think that it can be fake after reading one of the replies, but the neck is also faintly flamed and seems to change according to the light, so I guess it is real flame. I think that it would be strange for a maker to choose flamed wood for the neck but unflamed wood for the back (and paint it).

If it is relevant: the purfling is definitely inlaid. What I find strange is that the the flame around purfling on top that does not stay at the edge would sometimes suddenly fade, as if it was painted

 

 

Edited December 2, 2022 by cardi

[Wood Butcher]

Maybe post some pictures which work, otherwise we have no idea what you are talking about.

[Shelbow]

2 minutes ago, Wood Butcher said:

Maybe post some pictures which work, otherwise we have no idea what you are talking about.

The pictures are there but I think the file size is big so sometimes they don't load properly.

[Don Noon]

Hard to say from a photo, but the overall look, and the fact that someone thought it was worth bushing the peg holes, would indicate real flames.  The varnish is a very dark color, and if it got into the flames, it would look burned.

[______]

To me those flames on back look definetely fake. Maybe it was in Graslitz one day...?