Missing corner blocks?

[polkat]

Recently I opened up two different factory violins for crack repairs. I had done repairs on other factory violins before, but never on a Check made one (as one was). The lower corner blocks were there, but the upper corners had no blocks. The rib points were simply glued together and a cover was glued in place on the inside. Hummm, somehow I had never seen this before, although I'm sure there are many this way. At first I just assumed it was done to save time and materials, but one thing struck me as odd. The lower blocks were very nicely fitted on this fiddle. Some care seemed to have been taken in the lower blocks, while the uppers were completely ignored.

So question: Is there some other reason this might be done by a factory (or even an individual maker)?

[Andres Sender]

The apprentice wanted to practice higher levels of craft, but the master caught him after the bottom two blocks and slapped him around and took the violin away from him and finished it (took him about an hour including varnish) and sold the instrument the next day.

Eventually the apprentice ended up doing 3-year restorations for a state museum where they didn't seem to notice that mostly all he did was put corner blocks in where there weren't any before. Every morning he walks his dog around the park near his home. As you might expect, it is rather shaggy.

[Wesley S. Boyd]

I'm guessing I own the violin's brother/sister. Mine has no blocks. I would guess that the lower corner blocks were put in place during a repair. I'm guessing that the violin never had blocks to start with. Possible?

Here my old violin for comparison: http://www.highdecibel.com/wooddensity.htm

Wes Boyd

[matthew tucker]

Isn't that an indication of outside mould technique?

[polkat]

I've never used an outside mold. Is it a practice not to use corner blocks on outside molds? Somehow that doesn't sound right.

W.S.Cool, I remember that on this one the top and back linings were mortised into the lower corner blocks. Just seems like a lot of carefull work to me to then abandon upper blocks. Maybe Andres is right.

[mcarufe]

I had repaired one a long time ago when I use to scour ebay for "treasures". It had a Vuillaume label with stunning figred back and the archings of a Stainer(not a good Stainer) It had the same lower corner blocks with no uppers. I think it might have been at the very least a not so unusual practise to make them look like they were made on inside molds as the top ones a hard to see for the average buyer. Maybe a more experienced restorer can tell if the is a structural reason for this practice as well. In my limited experience I have reglued more bottom blocks than top, but the samlpe size is meager to be reliable.

Mike

[Andres Sender]

I think the principle goes something like this: all cases of no corner blocks are from outside molds, but not all products of outside molds are missing corner blocks, and not all corner blocks in products of outside molds were added later.

[apartmentluthier]

The practice of putting lower corner blocks and not uppers most likely can be attributed to the fact that the lower blocks are easily seen through the ff holes. The uppers are not. I've seen lots of fiddles with lowers and no uppers or with just cheaters in place in of the lowers.

[Ron1]

quote:

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Originally posted by:

apartmentluthier

The practice of putting lower corner blocks and not uppers most likely can be attributed to the fact that the lower blocks are easily seen through the ff holes. The uppers are not. I've seen lots of fiddles with lowers and no uppers or with just cheaters in place in of the lowers.

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That's exactly right. The existence of lower blocks when there are no upper blocks, is meant entirely to deceive. It is very common in lower-end factory instruments. Although, on the other hand, there are good quality instruments by makers who did not use corner blocks at all. And I guess that's acceptable too.

[MANFIO]

A inner mold (forma interna) is used in the classical italian method of violin making. The blocks are glued to the form and shaped, than the ribs are bent and glued to the shaped upper, lower and corner blocks. When the ribs are taken out of the form, the blocks goes with them and are internally shaped again. This is the classical italian method.

The outer form was introduced in France and was also used by some good italian makers (Candi used them, as well the Genovese school, if I`m not wrong) and good violins constructed in an outer form also have corner blocks.

So we can say that a violin without corner blocks was not constructed in a "classical" way, perhaps it was constructed without a form at all.

[C.B.Fiddler]

It is my understanding that outside molds were used for reproducing the same outline over and over again. They make very consistent reproductions but are inflexible to experimentation and exploration, unlike inside molds.

Corner blocks were used with outside molds, but instead of clamping the ribs to the blocks, the blocks are clamped to the ribs (if that makes any sense!)

[MANFIO]

Yes, that's it!

[Berl Mendenhall]

I've owned a bunch of these fiddles (probably fifty or more). Here's what I know about these old German fiddles. (I use the term German genaric cause they were made all over) They're factory made not outside mold hand made fiddles. They made the tops and backs by the thousand all the same size. The ribs were made by the thousand also. Maybe from a completely different location and bought. The same with the necks. They just glued the ribs to the plates in sections ( lower, upper, and c's). The blocks are usually fake in the lower corners. Just a thin piece of spruce glued against the ribs to look like blocks through the F hole. This all has to do with original price charged for these fiddles. The really cheap ones had no fake blocks or linings at all, with lesser quality maple. Then you got up to better maple with no blocks and the inside of the tops not graduated just hacked out with the bass bar carved in ( really bad carved in ). Then you got up to better maple (some really top quality maple ) with fake lower blocks and the top somewhat graduated with bass bars glued in. The scrolls are pretty bad on the lower grade ones. The better grade fiddles can have a real nice look to them. Nearly all of these factory made things had no real blocks. You had to get up to more expensive, much better make ones, to get real blocks. Old mail order store catalogs listed these for less than $5.00.

I bought two of these ( better quality but still no blocks )fiddles last week end at a flea market. Both have a great old antique look to them. One I've had the top off already to replace the upper block. While I've got the top off I'll rebar and check the graduation. I'll reset the neck, put the thing back together and it'll make a real nice fiddle. One has the best maple and the other has so so maple. Another thing about these fiddles is, if the arching is good, they can make very good sounding fiddles. I've had some with hacked out graduation on the top and really sorry carved bass bars that didn't sound that bad. That alone should tell us something.

One more thing Brad Dorsey, a poster on Maestronet can tell you a lot more about these things than I can. He's bought and sold a ton of these things.

Berl

[Fellow]

One reason I come up with:

To reduce its weight to get louder sound. (It seemed so easy for the luthiers to put a block

there, but they intentionally did not)

[Craig Tucker]

Snip;

"Another thing about these fiddles is, if the arching is good, they can make very good sounding fiddles. I've had some with hacked out graduation on the top and really sorry carved bass bars that didn't sound that bad. That alone should tell us something."

Yes, these fiddles can often sound as good, or, with some work, be made to sound as good, as fiddles costing hundreds of times as much. The point is that they still have no provenance, so, don't expect them to fetch much at resale - but they can be a real bargin for someone with a good eye looking for a playable instrument. Regraduating, rebarring, and setting them up carefully, can really put some life into them.

Too, many of the old *German* bows that came with the better violin kits, or that were purchased straight out of the Sears or Wards catalogs (or whereever) seperately for four or five dollars, were amazing re; quality and workmanship and can be re haired, regripped, and/or perhaps recambered to work very well.

The trick is to be able to elliminate the crap and spend your time on the stuff with some potential.

[Berl Mendenhall]

Craig,

Your right, if they aren't better quality things with "NO" cracks they aren't worth your time.

Berl Mendenhall

[Craig Tucker]

In order to put a somewhat practical slant on this;

I will usually consider paying between $100 - $250 for violins like this, that are in decent shape - and wind up selling them for between $750 and $2,500 with a new (albeit cheap) case, and a rehaired/rebuilt bow or two - depending on how nice they are, and what work/parts were needed...

For me - with my business and market - this is practical, profitable endevor.

Violins such as this can make good advanced student violins, orchestra player violins (I am often surprised at what poor quality instruments some orchestra players have and play), or violins for the local fiddlers, who often are playing real crap and who are amazed at what a huge difference a decent violin can make.

I believe that some of these generic violins, in the right circumstance, can fetch much more ($'s) than I charge.

In some ways, they're a lot like used cars.

[Bob A]

I was burned somewhat by one of these fake-block instruments (a viola). I assumed that the Didier label was sufficiently obscure to have been original. (Mistake #1). I assumed the seller's description was closer to reality than out-and-out fantasy (mustake #2). I assumed that the repaired top crack was actually repaired (mistake #3).

When I took it to my local luthier, a man who is doing quite well putting my ebay trash in some semblance of playability, and saw the inside, I almost wept. Fake lower corners, integral bass bar, a touch of the worm, and so forth. Cost me as much to repair as the original purchase. "Should I bother at all?" was the question on my lips. "Why not?" he replied, "For the money you have in it, the best you could do would be a cheap Chinese viola that probably wouldn't sound as good".

Well, you live and (sometimes) learn. Or is it more a case of "A fool and his money are soon parted"?

(Just a rhetorical question, thanks).

[Craig Tucker]

This is where you have to sort of know the market.

Very often, the owner/seller (especially if it is a private party) is as 'in the dark' as the buyer is.

[Andres Sender]

Berl interesting about no outside mold either--can you say where that info. comes from?

[Berl Mendenhall]

I personally stay away from ebay. I don't trust buying fiddles like that. I've got to look at them. There can be a ton of stuff wrong that does't show up in poor quality pictures. I don't even look at ebay fiddles anymore. I must confess though, I have bought two. This was several years ago. Both were losers. Just my personal thoughts. Some people buy off the web, and do fine, I guess.

Berl Mendenhall

[polkat]

Will, the fiddle is no longer with me, but I do remember the label saying Made in Checkslovokia. I don't remember any maker name (although there could have been). The lower blocks were real and well cut, the linings morticed, the top plate was graduated and very fine grained, and had a glued in bass bar. The the back and ribs were very nicely flamed maple, and the instrument had good tone (to me). Admittedly some of this work could have been done at a later time. The lack of an attempt to do upper blocks (although there were little plates (fake blocks) on the uppers) just struck me as strange considering the rest of the instrument, assuming it was a factory piece. But I get the idea now that fake blocks has been common practice among cheaper instruments.

[Berl Mendenhall]

Andres,

As to my coment about them not using an outside mold, I've seen pictures in a few books on German fiddle factorys. THey had plates stacked as high as your head. There just was no time for an outside mold, that's why there's no blocks. They just bent the ribs and linings (probably by some steam process ) then glued the linings to the ribs then glued the ribs to the plates. There may have been a mold used on the more expensive fiddles that had real blocks.

Berl

[FiddleDoug]

There were a lot of these fiddles made without corner blocks, in the Saxony area of Germany and Czeckosolvakia in the late 1800's and early 1900's if you go through the listings of the National Museum of Music (link on my website). You'll see tons of instruments listed like that, with no blocks, false lower blocks, lower blocks but no upper blocks, carved in bass bar. All done to lower the cost!