Vernice Bianca again!

[MANFIO]

I've tried to make an ambar pitch/oil varnish based in an old recipe on Baese's book, but with no success too... it's muddy and never dried.

[DarylG]

quote:

---

Originally posted by:

magnus nedregard

Hm, I suspect many

believed

they used amber varnish...

---

You might be right!

[polkat]

Thanks guys! This has been an eye opener. I can only find references to the word bianca (with that spelling) in the Italian language, where it directly translates to "white." But of course, who knows what it might have been a slang word for centuries ago? Or the result of a mix of words. For example; bianco (with that spelling) translates to "clear." Same is true of vernice, which, with that spelling translates only to "varnish"...today, but who knows what it might have meant in centuries past. It seems to me that Ferbose's information on the word vernice is probably the most accurate.

Anyway, I'm no historian, and my quote that amber didn't come into widespread use until about the time Strad died was based simply on things I've read. And please notice that I said "widespread" use, not "invented."

Anyway, I like the stuff. In fact, I've used it as the only ground/sealer on two violins that seem to sound great. Anyway, thanks again for all the input.

[DarylG]

Hi Oded,

I get the amber from Kremer. Carefully sort out the best pieces, avoiding the bone colour amber. Rinse with water to clean off dirt. Melt (fuse) the amber slowly in a pot to a temperature of 340-370C. It smokes like all hell but eventually the smoke dies off and it foams up a bit. Pour the molten amber into a pan to cool. The fused amber is then crushed with a mortar and pestle. Washed linseed oil is slowly heated in a pot to 260C. Add crushed amber and slowly increase temperature to 300C. Hold this temperature until a long thread can be pulled from a drop of varnish. Cool to 150C and add turpentine. Strain thru fine paint strainers and bottle. It can take some experimenting to get ideal cooking times for the various stages and be able to recognize when things are done. IMO, the most important stage is the fusing. The other variable I've been experimenting with lately is the oil:resin ratio. This really can change how the varnish brushes, dries, polishes, feels, wears, and likely sounds...though I don't have enough experience to theorize much about that. My varnish dries overnight in the lightbox and is a lovely reddish-golden colour. This is where I'm at now, though I'm continuingly trying to refine my varnish/varnishing. Cheers,

[Bruce Tai]

I have never made varnish of any kind, but I know many have

successfully made and used amber varnish in recent times.

 Mayer mentioned in his book that true amber varnish is

considered a superior varnish for artists in the 20th century.

 What Eastlake and Laurie were saying is that amber varnish

was probably sold in large quantities from sources like the local

apothecracy, due to very practical reasons such as price and

availability.  

The problem with the vernice liquida in Cennini's book is

that it is mentioned as a raw material without any explanation.

 One art scholar commented that the omission was deplorable.

 Cennini is a person with a lot of practical experience

(unlike me!), and gave a lot of useful details about many practical

things.  For example, he said that sun-thickening

of linseed oil is better than heat-thickening (gave

instructions for both), and that the former could be bought in

Florence with the highest quality.  Yet he is unwilling to

give any specifics about vernice liquida.  There are

two possibilities.  First, vernice liquida is so

commonplace and readily purchasable that it required no

explanation.  Second, vernice liquida was an exclusive

product whose secret was jealously guarded and Cennini knew nothing

about it.  I find the first scenario much more likely.

 Let's not forget that Vasari also spoke of vernice

liquida without any explanation.  It is hard to imagine

that any art material would be secretive enough to elude the

investigation of Cennini and Vasari.  But this is not to

suggest that vernice liquida mentioned by Cennini and Vasari

more than 100 years apart referred to the same material.

 Unfortunately, even the scholarship of Eastlake and Laurie

cannot ascertain what they were, and I am not aware of any

scientific evidence that has resolved this mystery.

 

[David Tseng]

I've been using amber varnish for many years. First I "run" half a kilo of gum as described by Daryl, it can be kept indefinitely. I make a small batch of varnish each time, say for 4 violins. I make both short and long oil length varnishes. The common long oil length, i.e., vernice liquida, is 3 to 1 oil to resin ratio, but you still could vary. You can use any resin (usually need to be run first), so long as it is misicble with oil. The only requirement for vernice liquida type of varnish is it has to have some amount of "stickyness" so you can print it with your palm and fingers. Since it does not "dry" before you expose it to sun light, you have time to manuplate the coatings. Another thing is you don't inhale the harmful slovent fumes.

[Bruce Tai]

quote:

---

Originally posted by:

polkat

I've been using this

ground successfully for a while now, so this is not a technical

question. Rather, from the (admittedly limited) research I've done,

it seems that only Sarconi's (sp?) book references VB as a ground

used specifically by luthiers during the golden period. Has anyone

seen other references to this ground as used by past luthiers (not

painters)?

---

Sorry for sidetracking this thread.  

First I believe Sacconi did not say VB is the ground.

His proposed the ground to be a water glass of potassium and

calcium silicate (potash lime glass).

We know the water glass theory is not correct.

Several electron microscopy studies have shown that the ground is

full of inorganic particles in an organic binder.

The major particles include at least potassium feldspar and

calcite, but probably glass/silica and gypsum as

well. At any rate these are all inert pigments with

refractive indices around 1.55, very similar to those of wood,

dried oil, and terpenoid resins (mastic, rosin, copal,

sandarac, etc. etc.).  

The binder is probably an oil-resin varnish.  In Cremonese

instruments only linseed oil has been found (by two gas

chromatography studies).  The resin part is still a mystery.

 

 

Sacconi said that VB is between the ground and the color varnish.

 

He is the only person to talk about VB in Cremonese instruments

that I have come across.

Since I have no association with Sacconi, I can only speculate

where he got such ideas.

My first guess is that he used UV fluorescence to make guesses.

A pretty convenient but unreliable method if you ask me.

My second guess is that Condax performed amino acid analyses on

some old varnishes he got from Sacconi and relayed the info to

him.  

Amino acid analysis on 200 year-old protein film is pretty

unreliable in my opinion.

By the way, honey has a lot of sugar in it.  

How Sacconi could know that candied sugar was added to it is a

real mystery. 

Anyway, having VB as the isolation layer is not inconsistent with

current analytical data, but I doubt if anyone really had enough

evidence to ascertain its existence.  With current analytical

evidence it seems highly likely that there is a protein

interlayer between the ground and the color varnish.  If

somehow Mr. Condax' or Mr. Baese' scientific results can

be made public (or at least I have not seen them), we can be

almost certain.

Sacconi said that VB is used on the inside.  In this case it

would act as the ground.  However, there is no analytical

evidence for or against it as far as I know.

[Bruce Tai]

quote:

---

Originally posted by:

MANFIO

Ferbose, what about

learning Italian? Ciao!

---

Yes, I thought about learning Italian when I was really fascinated

by the works of Italo Calvino (and still think he is one of the

greatest novelists ever).  That was only a whim since I have

no linguistic talents.  But I do have a couple of

modern Italian questions here:

1.  What is the difference between vernice a olio and

vernice grassa? The dictionaries I consulted say

the former is oil paint, and the latter is fixed oil varnish.

2.  Does vernice fresca mean wet paint?  Do house

painters really use this sign on wet walls?

3.  Does vernice metallizzata mean metallic paint?

 What kind of material is this?  Is it paint mixed with

metallic powders?  

Perhaps you can see the direction I am going.  It seems to me

that what is called vernice in modern Italian is

sometimes called paint in English, not varnish. In

English if one adds a lot of pigment to a varnish it becomes a

paint.  But I am under the impression that in modern Italian

oil-resin medium doped with lots of pigments can still be

called vernice sometimes.  And why is this

important?  Because Stradivari called his violin coating

material vernice (see Hills' book), but in fact his

vernice had very high pigment content.  In English you

would call his coating material paint.  But I am the under

impression that the Italian word vernice does not imply that

there cannot be a lot of pigments.  

[Oded Kishony]

Hi Bruce,

I was under the impression that walnut oil was found on some Cremonese instruments, am I wrong about that?

The presence of a protein isolating layer is very interesting. I would speculate that the need for an isolating film was to seperate the lower layers that were colored with acidic yellow madder from the upper layers colored with more basic red colored madder. Just speculative of course.

Oded

[Magnus Nedregard]

Let's see if I can post this before Manfio

1.  What is the difference between vernice a olio and

vernice grassa?  The dictionaries I consulted say

the former is oil paint, and the latter is fixed oil varnish.

"Vernice ad Olio" is oil varnish as in english. At school we also made something we called, "vernice grassa" wich was essential oil varnish but it is often the same as "oil varnish" just a little more imprecise, just like "fatty varnish" in English would be

2.  Does vernice fresca mean wet paint?  Do house

painters really use this sign on wet walls?

Yes, and varnish and paint can both be "vernice" "

3.  Does vernice metallizzata mean metallic paint?

 What kind of material is this?  Is it paint mixed with

metallic powders?  

I suppose so, don't really know about that... in what context did you encounter that?"

Perhaps you can see the direction I am going.  It seems to me

that what is called vernice in modern Italian is

sometimes called paint in English, not varnish.  In

English if one adds a lot of pigment to a varnish it becomes a

paint.  But I am under the impression that in modern Italian

oil-resin medium doped with lots of pigments can still be

called vernice sometimes.  And why is this

important?  Because Stradivari called his violin coating

material vernice (see Hills' book), but in fact his

vernice had very high pigment content.  In English you

would call his coating material paint.  But I am the under

impression that the Italian word vernice does not imply that

there cannot be a lot of pigments.

this is very true, I think"

[mcarufe]

I think the biggest problem with running amber is heat distribution and oxidation. I was succesful pulverizing it and melting with a larger beaker over the smaller one to reduce the amount of burning vs melting. (pulverizing mechanically is not an easy task.) Also I was not very worried about getting a large ratio of the actual resin because it is quite siccative in lower amounts. I preheated the linseed oil and added to the melting resin a little at a time. Much of the amber will appear not to run but it does not take much to make a varnish) After pill forms allow to cool only enough to add terps without a boil over then filter. Dries great. Much more crude method than Daryl's but it works. Also neat little crystals formed on the concrete next to hot plate (Hydrogen succinate?)

Mike

[NewNewbie]

"Only Baese showed one electron micrograph (in the newsletter to

his book) of a varnish sample claiming that it

contains amber.  In my opinion there is no way that the

electron microscopy could identify amber.  I really wish to be

enlightened on this subject a bit more." - Ferbose

================================================================================

=======

I hear that Baese does not even use this varnish when he teaches

his class on varnish making.  If that was the case, then you

would have to think that the evidence he had for Amber was not too

convincing.

Even if you figure out what a varnish recipes is, this does not

mean that it was followed.  Take a look at cooking for

example, and a little more specific Italian cooking.  No two

cooks are alike, and a good cook is always playing with their food,

which is oddly something your mother told you not to do!!!

So vernice liquida could be a really big secret, or such a really

commonly known recipes that it is not listed, ....or it could be

that there was no *one way* of making it, so how could you list all

the possibilities. 

Do you think Baese played with his food as a kid?

 

[Bruce Tai]

quote:

---

Originally posted by:

Oded Kishony

Hi Bruce, I was

under the impression that walnut oil was found on some Cremonese

instruments, am I wrong about that? The presence of a protein

isolating layer is very interesting. I would speculate that the

need for an isolating film was to seperate the lower layers that

were colored with acidic yellow madder from the upper layers

colored with more basic red colored madder. Just speculative of

course. Oded

---

If you read Baese' article in Strad in 1996, "Spuer Sleuth of

Varnish," it does say walnut oil.

But Baese cited the two Strad articles in 1984 (studies by Raymond

White) as references.

In those articles, White found linseed oil in the Guarneri

sample.  

The VSA lecture given by Baese in 1986 also said Guarneri

sample had linseed oil.

In 1996 he said Guarneri is walnut oil, which puzzles me.

In a recent GC/MS study by Echard, published in 2007 in a

scientific journal, Stradivari's sample is found with linseed

oil.

If you get down to the bottom of the matter and ask how the oil is

determined, it all comes down to the palmitic acid vs. stearic acid

ratio determined by gas chromatography. Walnut oil has a higher P/S

ratio. Although this standard is pioneered by museum

scientists, there is no guarantee it is always right.  And I

am not sure if poppy seed and hempseed oil can be ruled out by

these GC experiments.  At any rate, these are the only four

drying oils used in Europe at the time.  So there is a good

chance we will know for sure eventually.  

[Oded Kishony]

Thanks Bruce.

My recollection is that I saw the walnut oil reference in Raymond White's research. It also occurs to me that the isolating layer may have been used to prevent solvents from dissolving the bottom layers. I think it's a good idea to try to develop the larger picture not just the isolated facts. Why was an isolating layer needed, why were minerals used etc.?

Oded

[Dean_Lapinel]

Oded states with excellent precision:

quote:

---

I think it's a good idea to try to develop the larger picture not just the isolated facts. Why was an isolating layer needed, why were minerals used etc.?

---

I think these answers would lead to others.

Regarding Italian. I'm slowly trying to read a book by Ferruccio Zanier titled-

Il Violino, principi tecnici costruttivi, come fu rintracciata E ricomposta La vernice degli antichi liutari.

Big title!

With my Spanish/French I am able to get through quite a bit but I lose the subtle expressions in translation.

I'm on page two. jk

[MANFIO]

I have many of these Italian books about varnish: Corbara, Carletti, Casini, Fioravanti, etc. They are interesting but they are a bit dated, I think. I like Baese's book.

And there is that old saying in Latin: "Ars lunga, vita brevis" ("Art is long, life short")... Making our own varnish is great, but it can be frustranting, costy, sometimes even dangerous. And it's quite time consuming too. And a varnish that appear great today, may develop some problems with time (colour changes, it can get too dry, too "crazy", etc) and that occurs quite often.

I'm quite happy with Pading's varnish, many professionals here are using them. I'll never be able to study the subject and make so many tests and he did to develop his varnishes. And we can manipulate Pading's varnishes (colour, consistency, ground, etc.) to fit our particular necessities and taste and, eventually, that varnish in the finished violin will not be entirely by Pading, but will be the result of our own experince in modificating it and applying it too.

[fiddlecollector]

Regarding protein found in varnish layers,which layer is it supposed to have been found in???

A simple explanation for this if it is in the coloured layer ,of which ive never heard any of these papers mention apart from one abstract ,is in the way madder and some other lake pigments were made.

BAck in the 16th -late 18th century madder root was not supposed to be readily available to anyone but textile manufacturers. One of the best used methods of obtaining madder and kermes dye for making pigments for artists firstly ,then probably instrument makers was using scrap dyed cloth made of silk and wool. The dye was extracted using quite strong alkalis. In the process ,this attacked the protein fibres in the textile material. Analysis of many paintings from Southern Europe ,find protein and some sulphur in large amounts.The protein somehow binds with the lake substrate.

It may explain the presense of protein in instrument varnish layers or may not.

[mcarufe]

Bob brings up a good point with the proteins binding with natural pigments as this could also account for their lightfastness.

Mike

[Melvin Goldsmith]

Bob's point is a good one.

Sacconi says the VB layer is to protect the colour coat from the

alkali ground...Sacconi is a bit unspecific and probably better in

true reality than his book and often taken too seriously on what

the book says. I personally do not  know here the protein

sealer fits in as far as science research goes. One remarkable

thing about post 1690 (ish) Strads is how fast and willingly their

color coat  detaches. We can see from copyists like Vuillaume

that 150 yr old Strads lost colour coat fast..but almost a similasr

time later the Vuillaume copies do not show similar aging.

Improvement in vilin case design cannot account for the

difference.

Putting an oil/ pigment medium over a protein ground will result

inloses attatchement & fast wear like we see... That

is not proof that such a layer exists . But perhaps there is a

layer and we must ask WHY?.... Oded already alluded to this

[violins88]

Darryl,

I wonder if you would please give some details about heating the amber. 300C is really hot, and dangerous. Tell us how to do it safely, and also, what kind of thermometer did you use?

Thanks

[Oded Kishony]

Hi Melvin,

Isn't it the red color that flaked off the Strads, leaving a lighter color underneath it? Madder turns red with an alkali while it is a yellow or orange color in a more acidic medium.

Oded

[Melvin Goldsmith]

Hi Oded

....What you say sounds as plausible as anything but more

interesting!....Does this work for you?

[Oded Kishony]

Hi Melvin,

Yes, I've been making a 'spirit' (the spirit is turpentine not alcohol) varnish from rosin and madder which seems to be working quite well but still in the experimental stage.

Oded

[DarylG]

Hi Violins88,

My post about making amber varnish was simplified and was only meant as a brief outline of what I'm currently doing. Some of those steps can take several hours and while I do keep detailed notes, I'm reluctant to post the specifics because I'm still experimenting and learning myself. As far as safety goes I use a high walled pot that helps to prevent things from boiling over and have the usual array of safety items on hand: face shield, welding gloves, fire extinguisher, and a big bucket of water (for me not the varnish!). It's important to handle these materials with respect and one thing I've learnt is that if things start to go bad it's best to just get out of the way! Accidents happen when you try to save a few dollars worth of varnish. I use a 400C thermometer that can be obtained from any scientific supply house such as Cole-Parmer. I don't recommend amber varnish for the novice varnish maker. Cheers,