fakes

[slowpoke]

Ball park  - what percentage of violins on ebay do you recon

are not what the label suggests?

[oldgeezer]

Almost all of them. "Labeled" is ebay speak for fake label. The seller isn't claiming that the violin was made by the labeled maker but only that the violin is labeled with that name. Fake labels have a long tradition in the violin selling business. There are exceptions but assuming the label is fake is a good place to start.

[Brad Dorsey]

It depends on what sort of violins you're talking about. Recently made violins with labels like Skylark, Samuel Eastman, Rudolf Doetsch, John Juzek, etc., can generally be believed. Most violins with American labels are legitimate. But if you're talking about violins older than 50 years, or so, with labels dated from the 1500s to the mid 1800s indicating European origin, I'd guess that over 99 percent are fake.

[slowpoke]

Manufactured as fakes or relabeled as fakes?

[oldgeezer]

Mostly they're just labeled as fakes but bear little resemblance to the real thing. Brad has it right but there's thread below about a Markneukirchen student violin that a fraudster is trying to pass off as American with a nice freshly inserted fake label. The ebay creative sellers notice when some particular kind of violin brings a good price and oblige with an appropriate label and sales pitch for the gullible.

[Brad Dorsey]

"Manufactured as fakes or relabeled as fakes?"

I'd guess mostly the former, but "manufactured as fakes" is not exactly the right way to put it, because most of these violins were not made with the intention of deceiving anyone. The person who put the Strad (or Guarneri, Amati, Stainer, Maggini, etc.) label in the violin never expected anyone to actually believe that it was a real Strad. The label was inserted in the hope that some of the aura of the famous maker would allow the violin to sell for another dollar or two.

[MANFIO]

I was contacted by a person who had got a "Negri" violin, made in Cortona. He asked me to e.mail Negri to ask him if he had made that violin. Negri said "no" and that there was no "Negri" violin maker in Cortona...

[slowpoke]

There is something more honest about imitation violins rather that

the fraudulent ones mentioned above. Sadly these labels were

originally meant to be a mark of quality.

I like this advert for imitation instruments.

Imitations

[Allan Speers]

Slowpoke,

I agree with you.  I have an old German factory violin with a

label that says " Copy of - Antonius Stadivarius - made in Germany"

It's a very nice fiddle, with excellent wood.  I

like the fact that it's not trying to pretend anything.  

[slowpoke]

Yes Alan

A factory fiddle that plays well is a delight.

A "labeled" fiddle that ought to play well but doesn't is a major

disappointment.

The sense of being hoodwinked doesn't help either.

[jackc]

Slowpoke - The three volumes of "Violin Identification and Price Guide" by Roy Ehrhardt are full of adds like the one you cite. While the "price guide" part is a stretch, they give a wonderful overview of the period of time where you had to have a musical instrument in the house if you wanted to have music--before radios and victrolas were commonplace. If you couldn't afford a piano, you bought a German or French trade violin from Sears or Monkey Wards or J.W. Pepper or somebody.

And there are some really nice trade violins to be found, maybe made by one good maker working in the factory using matching wood for the scroll, ribs, and back. Of course, you may find one with the same label, from the same store, that was made in an entirely different factory in Mirecourt or Mittenwald that is not nearly as good.

My take is that 90% of labels are authentic as Brad says. But the most interesting ones are the remaining 10% and were placed there with the intent to deceive. This is especially easy to do on ebay, where you can't really see the instrument. Coupled with poor photographs it's caveat emptor with a vengeance. There is a seller or sellers from one particular area of the US who have been selling fraudulently stamped bows for years on ebay. They are stamped (poorly) as if from the best past makers, but they never bring much money anymore. Fortunately, they are easy to spot and avoid.

[slowpoke]

When stamps and blank instruments can be bought cheaply it dosent take a genus to come up with the idea. Sadly we are all a little bit gullible when we see a makers name and think we have struck lucky.

[jackc]

Not only that, but you can buy "Old Masters Labels".

see

http://www.metmusic.com/store/...roduct&ProductID=27101

Right there under "Tools-> Glues and Varnish". Sheesh.

[slowpoke]

$5 to turn a skylark into a strad.

Imagine seeing the label from one of your collection on that sheet!!

[slowpoke]

The thing is, to apply a fake label Im guessing you need to remove the top of the fiddle.

So some knowledge and skill is required.

[Beaux Eau]

Nope - easy as pie - through the f-hole you go. Just a tweezers, a popsicle stick and your choice of glue. I've done it a thou . . .oops - I mean, NO I HAVEN'T! Now, a fake Roth brand to burn in (see string currently running) there's initiative!

[Omobono]

Here's a Mittenwald label from 1750 or thereasbouts: