Dr. Nagyvary

[NewNewbie]

Photonics Spectra,

January 2007 article for Ferbose.

http://www.photonics.com/content/spectra/2...copy/86103.aspx

I ran across it at this violin making forum by Don Roth:

http://www.violins.on.ca/ubb/Forum1/HTML/001212.html

[jaf67]

And if you do a search on "Joseph Nagyvary" on this site and than the web, read it all, you'll come back next month with a new perspective and a headache.

[DutchViolins]

Dr. Nagyvary?

Oh, no, not again!

[bblake]

I feel certain that in time Dr Nagyvarys work will be recognised as one of the great efforts in the history of Instrument making.

Not to comment on the other posts here, (I understand that one can get tired of an ongoing and circuitous discussion), but it does amuse me that he has met with so much hostility.

I do know that his personality can be somewhat combative but nevertheless, it would seem to me that his efforts and research, (whether or not you accept the findings), are an outstanding contribution.

I try to read as much as I can of this type of research, historical and contemporary, and I conclude that Dr Nagyvarys dedication and focus, if nothing else, make him deserving of a place in history.

Give 'im a break.

[Ecrivain]

bblake,

If you believe that his basic premises and agruments, like a scientist still trying to prove the moon is made of cheese, is a benefit to science--and there is nothing wrong with THAT, then I would have to agree.

But, if you don't take that view, then I'm sorry it is folly to let him interrupt your serious reading.

The poor doctor ignores much more research than he has ever undertaken.

I think you would do well to relegate him to the depths of non-history along with all the "varnish" maniacs.

As for the reactions he gets?

Fools usually get a viceral reaction once they've been shown the error or their ways but continue on in the same vane.

-E

[bblake]

quote:

---

Originally posted by:

Ecrivain

bblake,

If you believe that his basic premises and agruments, like a scientist still trying to prove the moon is made of cheese, is a benefit to science--and there is nothing wrong with THAT, then I would have to agree.

But, if you don't take that view, then I'm sorry it is folly to let him interrupt your serious reading.

The poor doctor ignores much more research than he has ever undertaken.

I think you would do well to relegate him to the depths of non-history along with all the "varnish" maniacs.

As for the reactions he gets?

Fools usually get a viceral reaction once they've been shown the error or their ways but continue on in the same vane.

-E

---

Thanks for thoughtful reply. Unfortunately I will now have to read even more of the Dr's work in order to establish the veracity, of what you are saying.

I'm not so sure he is a "varnish" maniac.

I do wonder about the research that you believe Dr Nagyvary has ignored. I would be quite interested in reading this if I have not come across it already.

Thanks again.

[Andres Sender]

You are all rehashing old hat.

The idea that there is useful basic research behind Dr. N's public flummery has been well argued by Ferbose in a past thread(s) here in the last few months.

The fact that Dr. N. has engaged in a lot of flummery in the past is also pretty well established, and evidence for the probability that he tends to hold back some details of the useful basic research itself has also been put forward.

So in effect, it's all true, sort of. Now what?

[Andrew Victor]

Dr. N's writings on ancient violin "ingeredients" has been coming up for at least the past 20 years.

To cite (as he now does) that there are detectable but un-analyzably specific salts in these ancient woods is not a help. Logs floating around the bays of Italy to their commercial destinations would certainly have picked up some of the Mediteranean salts. Analysis would help, although since the predominant salts would be very similar to sone of those imbibed by growing plants, it would seem necesary to run quantitative mass spectrometry on all the inorganic eloements.

I find it more interesting when a new violin is judged stronger and more pleasing to the ears of an audience - and especially by a major player.

So much for old salts then!

Andy

[Wolfjk]

Hi Andrew Victor,

There is an element of Geography involved in the floating log theory. As far as I know, logs don't float upstream. They float downstream in "very fresh" water.

quote:

---

Logs floating around the bays of Italy to their commercial destinations would certainly have picked up some of the Mediteranean salts.

quote:

---

Logs would have had to be shipped or "flown?" from Venice to Cremona. There was also the alternative transport of the ox or donkey cart. However I don't think the Cremonese violinmakers would have let the logs float past their back yard and pay for them to be brought back.

Cheers Wolfjk

[widdleabout]

Where's the crushed rubies?

[Bruce Tai]

quote:

---

Originally posted by:

widdleabout

Where's the

crushed rubies?

---

J. Nagyvary and J. Ehrman. The composite nature of the antique

Italian varnish. Die Naturwissenschaften, 1988, 75,

513-515.

In the early 17th century Venetian viola varnish, 200 particles

were individually identified by energy-dispersive X-ray.

9 particles were identified with only aluminum, which could

represent aluminum oxide (ruby or sapphire) or aluminum

hydroxide, which is used for lake pigments.

In the Guarneri sample no such particle was identified.  But

it also had no lead particles, which is often detected in the top

varnish.  This Guarneri varnish sample might have lost

some of its top layers.  

The most abundant particles identified in both varnishes are

quite similar.

In Raymond White's varnish analysis, Venetian 17th century

varnishes are also quite similar to a Guarneri sample, in terms of

oil and resins used.  

Ruby might have been used in Cremonese varnish for embellishment,

but it has not been positively identified.

Ruby or sapphire could have had some embellishment effects,

but it could not have been used in great quantity because their

refractive indices (1.67)  are too high to remain transparent

in a oil varnish with resin, both of which have refractive index

around 1.54 when dried.