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alittlebettereveryday

Tarisio Guarneri violin...

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....the Guarneri violin comes with a Rembert Wurlitzer

certificate from 1972...would a Wurlitzer certificate be

considered reliable?...moreover, might it have been in the seller's

interest to have obtained a more current certificate from a

respected dealer?...or should it just be obvious from the

instrument's workmanship?

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Generally speaking, certificates from the Rembert Wurlitzer firm are very reliable. During his lifetime, Rembert was the most prominent expert of his time and, together, with Sacconi, formed a formidable team. No expert, however, is perfect, so we do otherwise guarantee named instruments that are sold through Tarisio. Obtaining a certificate from one of today's experts would be at the buyer's expense, but we do guarantee the originality for a short period. The expert, of course, would have to be agreeable to us as well, so it is always best to ask before you bid.

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Thanks for the response...the question pertains to my situation...I

have a violin that I'm looking to consign...it has two certificates

-- one about 80 years old from a French firm and another about 40

years old from a respected American firm...in the course of

discussing it with various auction houses one of their

representatives -- someone you probably know -- suggested it might

be worthwhile to pack it up and ship it to London to get a

certificate from "the" expert on the maker...I was taken aback

somewhat by that suggestion -- I don't like the idea of shipping

old violins halfway around the world and back...on the other hand,

well, if it would make a substantial difference in the bidders

attitude then perhaps it would be with it...any input would be

appreciated...thanks.

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While it is true that a lot of older expertise does not carry in the marketplace, it does not seem necessary to ship the violin to London. There are several very good experts in this country who can help. Afterall, the point is to confirm an older document. As far as I know, the London auction houses do not routinely use the leading London expert in any event.

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quote:


Originally posted by:
alittlebettereveryday

in the course of discussing it with various auction houses one of their

representatives -- someone you probably know -- suggested it might

be worthwhile to pack it up and ship it to London to get a

certificate from "the" expert on the maker...


"The" expert on the maker... Now do tell. What do you have? A Voller, or a Strad?

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Mine is a 1690 Andrea Guarneri with a William Moennig III

certificate from 1967...it's been awhile and my memory isn't the

best but as I recall the rep wanted to send it to either Biddulph

or Beare....after he thought about it awhile the rep changed his

mind and decided Moennig's word would be "acceptable"...this

certificate, that certificate -- I'm always rather astonished that

no one ever seems particularly interested in how the instrument

actually sounds.

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Hmmm... I don't think I would have told you to take the fiddle overseas. I think there certainly are people here in the states that should be able to confirm or deny the attribution... one or two even post on this board.

If it's "right" and in good shape and sounds (or can be made to sound) good, it may well be a good candidate for either retail or auction. Nice to have options.

Why not just select a qualified individual and get this over for yourself?

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I plan on consigning it to be auctioned next fall...I think the

Moennig certificate should be more than adequate...in Christie's

auction both lots 257 and 258 had Moennig certificates...as I

recall lot 257's certificate was from 1973 and lot 258's was from

1978...lot 257 carried an estimate around $60000 but failed to

reach reserve...258, on the other hand, sailed past it's estimate

to sell for $132000...I doubt updating the certificate would have

made much difference.

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Hi everyday, and everyone else. I have not been on this board

for a long time so here is my less than 2 cents worth. Over the

years I have been able to visit all the big shops in the

U.S. and many in the U.K.  I am sure that not all will

agree, but I found that the Moennig shop and family to be the very

best in every way. There was a time when they were considered the

#1 shop in the the States by all the professionals that I knew or

worked with. The only complaint that I ever heard was their

shop was also the highest priced shop for violins, but  I

don't think anyone who purchased from them in the 40s, 50s, or 60s

are sorry today. You have a fine violin with great papers that

anyone would be happy to accept at auction or consignment, and I

wish you the very best. john j

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While I don't bid on items with estimates over $10,000, I can certainly say that I love to see vintage certificates with violins that I am planning to bid on. A Rembert Wurlitzer or a Moennig cert is just fine with me. For that matter, a couple of old certs accompanied by a new one, is very encouraging as the attribution has stood the test of time. Certs are hard to get or expensive.

I think that any buyer of an old fiddle would love to know the provenance and history of it. My customers always want to know who owned it and where it came from. Rarely do I have any substantial info to offer.

Best of luck!

J

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quote:


Originally posted by:
alittlebettereveryday

I plan on consigning it to be auctioned next fall...I think the

Moennig certificate should be more than adequate...in Christie's

auction both lots 257 and 258 had Moennig certificates...as I

recall lot 257's certificate was from 1973 and lot 258's was from

1978...lot 257 carried an estimate around $60000 but failed to

reach reserve...258, on the other hand, sailed past it's estimate

to sell for $132000...I doubt updating the certificate would have

made much difference.


An Andrea, eh? I sometimes find what motivates a seller, or seller's logic, is a curious thing... Interesting you'd rather auction it than sell it through a retailer... A good one, in good condition, might fetch twice the high sale you quoted in a good shop and would probably cost less to sell in terms of total sales commissions per $ (usually the number published for what is "realized" for an instrument in auction includes both the buyers and sellers commissions). You must have your reasons... You want the sale transparent? Maybe there are mitigating circumstances, undisclosed complications, authenticity issues or condition problems.

Anyway, you're selling a violin, not a paper. I don't know any expert who is flawless. A certificate certainly may add appeal... maybe confidence for a segment of buyers... and may even add some "value" in the end... but if the attribution of the instrument within that certificate is incorrect, it may not sway the "right" people (bidders who know what they are doing). Also, many of the present day experts review and/or purchase at the auctions, so a nice fiddle that's "right" with no paper at all will still attract bids. Indeed, an instrument of good quality listed incorrectly, with no certificate at all, may often sell very well at auction (these are often called "sleepers", but there are many sharp buyers out there, so they often get noticed by many... so maybe we should call them "nappers").

While it's rare for a shop to publish detailed catalogs (as in the days of Wurlitzer) these days, I think you'll notice that better shops won't usually list existing certificates when publicizing a specific instrument, unless those documents call to light some special history. It's not that they aren't discussed with a potential buyer, or passed along when a sale occurs... or that the provenance isn't important... it's that the instrument itself is the focus of the marketing... not the paperwork.

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