How much would a Strad cost me.....

[Nut Peg]

In 1900?

Thinking about the cost of violins these days, I started wondering what a quality violin might have cost 100 years ago?

Does anyone know of a data base or published study material on this? Just a wonderment about something which, actually has nothing to do with reality in 2006..... just a curiosity.

[MANFIO]

It's relative cost was much less than today 100 years ago. Prices skyrocket because:

- World population has triplicated and the number of the instruments remained the same;

- 100 years ago Strads were just in Europe, the market was European, today Strads are coveted in the USA, Japan, China, Korea, etc.

But I imagine that the violins by the couple Guarneri had increased in value much more than Strads.

Strads cost a high sum when the master was still alive, only the Church, Princes and Kings could afford them. They were never cheap.

On the Hill's book you will find an evolution of Strads prices from the time when the book was writen.

[Fellow]

I think Strads are over-priced. Not too long ago they were priced near a million a piece, now

they are priced multi-millions. Who can afford this kind of instruments except national

museums ? (Note that , one can get a glimpse of their prices history from a book, titlle:

A thousand mornings of music, Auther, Grinsburg? I thought then were over-priced )

[4fiddlinkids]

Try cozio.com. The sight is a great resource and lists historical prices on specific instruments going back (in some cases) centuries. FYI...in 1905, the ex-Marie Hall sold for 1,600 pounds. In 1988 it sold for 473,000 pounds.

[Nut Peg]

Lbs of what?

OH.... yea.... not Colonies money.

:-)

Thanks..... that's a good info..... I'll check them out.

[FutureConcertmaster]

Yuen, I actually found a strad for consiterably less, it is in the price range of $650K-$850K.

You can find it here: http://www.cozio.com/Instrument.aspx?id=7896

[Fellow]

A price of a house. Many people can afford this one. It is about right, not over-priced.

[cozio]

At Cozio Publishing, we have actually been researching this very question, which we hope to publish as a report soon. Surprisingly, violins have appreciated a lot less than most people think. Once you factor out the effects of inflation, prices for old Italian violins have only gone up about 3-4% per year since 1850, a little more for Strads and del Gesus. And if you take into account the dealer commissions, the actual ROI (return on investment) has only been about 2.5%, almost exactly the same as treasury bonds during the same period.

- Philip Margolis

[FutureConcertmaster]

It still doesn't make too much sense to me. You can get a "fine violin" from the late 1600's to the 1700's for about $30-75K. But then a strad costs in the millions. Could someone explain this to me. There might be something I dont know but I dont know too much about these "fine violins" from this time period.

[OuchardGadda]

that doesn't mean it's going to be a very good strad... there's a lot of strads which dont have the same qualities as The Soil and other famous strads... people think the name automatically gives the fiddle a great sound. I know of people who have preffered their Montagnana, Ruggieri, Bergonzi etc... to a strad.

[FutureConcertmaster]

Personally I think that strads are over-rated. There are a ton of great violins that you can buy from that time period for Hundreds of thousands less then a strad. I would never pay over $15K for a violin, bow and case. And that is when I play professionally. I mean a violin can only sound so good, the rest has to come from your skills.

[nickia]

I think these fine instruments have more psychological effect than pratical value. Violinists want them not only because these violins make them sound better, but more importantly, make them "feel" better.

Two T-shirts, one is being sold for $10 and the other one for $50. There is no difference between them except one has a brand tag of Nike...

[OuchardGadda]

FutureConcertmaster;

$15,000 is a very arbitrary number. How did you arrive at that number? Now, I'm sure you once tried your teacher's nice violin or something, but try let's say, 20 different violins ranging from $50,000 to 3 million, and you'll see what all the fuss is about. Do you think members of the NY phil and other top orchestras are all crazy for taking out second mortgages to buy a great violin and fantastic bows? You could probably buy a good violin, bow and case for $15,000... but if you're a professional at a certain level, I don't see what such a spartan approach is necessary. I can definately tell you about some top notch players who are very sparing in some departments, but no one will deny the effect of a fantastic bow or violin. Don't close your mind so much... one day if you become a professional, I'm quite positive that your needs will change.

[FutureConcertmaster]

Yes, but I don't want to end up paying like $8K for a bow and another $50K for an instrument. I think that this is crazy unless you have a solo career. I arrived at the number $15K because I was in boston a few years back and visited Johnson String Instruments. As many of you know they have a very nice Fine Instrument Dept. And I tried a lot (about 15-20) of them out and I liked almost all of them. And all the ones that i picked were under $15K, most under $10K. I cannot see paying $50K+ for a violin. I mean face it they were all once just blocks of wood. I mean I know the quality factor but you cannot always rely on a great violin to make you sound amazing. A lot of it is skills. I mean you cannot expect to sound like paganini just because you have an expensive instrument. I am just saying that I don't want to spend $50K on a violin when most orchestras only pay about $35K a year for a section violinists. I mean honestly paying $50K-3Million for some carved blocks of wood, a few acessories and some strings? That is just a little out of hand.

[Tets Kimura]

quote:

---

Originally posted by:

FutureConcertmaster

I mean

honestly paying $50K-3Million for some carved blocks of wood, a few

acessories and some strings?

---

Well, why do people pay good money for paintings or pottery (which

is basically just clay, right?)??? It's just that some people are

willing to pay a lot for a Strad, and that's why they're expensive.

Same with cars, houses, you name it.

Tets.

[FutureConcertmaster]

because they're crazy? I mean it would be fine if you just had that money to spend extra on it, such as a millionaire would. But taking out a second morgage for a violin? That is crazy.

[FutureConcertmaster]

because they're crazy? I mean it would be fine if you just had that extra money to spend on it, such as a millionaire would. But taking out a second morgage for a violin? That is crazy.

[Tets Kimura]

We all are a little crazy when it comes to violins...

Tets.

[FutureConcertmaster]

I know, I am crazy about violins and when it comes to violins, but unless you are someone like Joshua Bell those instruments just aren't sensible.

[OuchardGadda]

again, reach that level, then talk abotu what is sensible. Johnson instruments is great and all, but most of their stuff is pretty entry level. Next time you're in Boston, go to Reuning... the whole bit of it just being blocks of wood is for me, a very pessimistic and depressing way to look at life. Every aspect of existence could be reduced to molecules and atoms, and thereby trivialized. Life is wonderful because of certain things which might seem irrational. Besides, a violin at higher prices represent, often times, a sound investment and they do appreciate in value.

[FutureConcertmaster]

I am at an advanced level (moving on to Suzuki book 8, just finished mozarts concerto no. 4) And I thought that the nearly $2K I spent for my instrument was too much. But I love the violin. I am not saying that those instruments aren't great, they prob. are. But I doubt that a $15K violin is anywhere near entry level. I guess the point I am trying to reach here is that the price of the violin isn't always the greatest factor. I mean I play the tuba, and I play a very nice sousaphone for marching, it costs about $6K new. But I would much rather play my collegues tuba that they purchused for less then $500. It isn't always the price, it is what works for that person. And just because it is a violin for $50K-3 million doesn't mean it will work for everyone.

[Fellow]

Yes, you are right about prices of violins. You have to believe in yourself.

After all, your are the person who is going to play the violin bought or missed out..

Once I wasted 10 min to listen to a story and examined a label of a $8K violin. (They said it was on sale)

When I played it was like a $800 violin. Without the label and the story, it was nothing.

However, many $15K violins I have tried, most of them (not all of them ) had some richness in sound

and responsiveness. I must admit that they were well made violins and deserved credits to these makers.

As I understand it, expensive violins ($100K or over) are famous makers' violins. They have been well documented. As to how it became famous, I really don't know. Perhaps, their names were mentioned in books or in articles, newspapers etc. Almost everyday you hear people ask " Do you know this maker?"

[Erika]

quote:

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Originally posted by:

FutureConcertmaster

But I doubt that a $15K violin is anywhere near entry level.

---

$15K is a typical entry-level price for a professional instrument. It's pretty unusual to see someone win a major orchestra job with a lesser instrument -- not to say it doesn't happen (I can think of a couple instances), but it's unusual. And most people seem to upgrade from that as soon as they get tenure. But it's not like anyone will ever ask you at an audition how much you paid for your instrument... so if you can find a $2K instrument that will get you where you want to go, that's great.

[FutureConcertmaster]

Most of the time you are not actually paying for the actual violin. Like Yuen said, strads are over priced. A lot of the time you are paying because of the label of the violin. You can get a strad from the early 1700's and pay in the millions. But then you can get a violin from about the same time period by a lesser known maker for significantly less, prob about $30-50K.

[Jeffrey Holmes]

quote:

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Originally posted by:

cozio

At Cozio Publishing, we have actually been researching this very question, which we hope to publish as a report soon. Surprisingly, violins have appreciated a lot less than most people think. Once you factor out the effects of inflation, prices for old Italian violins have only gone up about 3-4% per year since 1850, a little more for Strads and del Gesus. And if you take into account the dealer commissions, the actual ROI (return on investment) has only been about 2.5%, almost exactly the same as treasury bonds during the same period.

- Philip Margolis

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Not trying to cause trouble... as I agree with your point in general, but I would hope your report doesn't end up comparing apples and oranges. i.e. Are the treasury bond returns you quoted inflation adjusted to the same rate? If they are, the return rate seems high... Am I mistaken? Also, the ROI doesn't tell the "whole" story. :-)

I've found that, like almost any other "investments", individuals tend to choose specific makers or instruments... or a specific time period... to support claims of rapid growth. I've watched and participated in the market for well over 20 years... and researched past performance... and find, as you mentioned, a steady, but not "stellar" track record. It's also worth mentioning that many old instruments have "lost" when adjusted for inflation. Take a look at an 18th century Kloz instrument. I believe they were valued close to 50% of what a good Testore was worth in the '20s. Now they are 8 to 10% on a good day.

Still, there other advantages musicians can benefit by when owning an instrument by a maker with a proven track record. An appreciating tool (an over the road trucking rig or a large computer system are depreciating tools... and can cost as much as a decent Gagliano), tax sheltered growth (including the ability to sell or trade and repurchase in "like kind", tax deductible finance charges in some cases (if a prof. musician who has structured their taxes correctly), etc..

This is not to suggest one should "over buy"... If one does make their living as a musician, however, having a nice fiddle (an appropriate one) can have some advantages past pride of ownership and artistic motivation.