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tim2

Sneak-Peek... new bridge

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Since I've already distributed a couple hands-full of these things for evaluation, I figured I'd also share with my favorite audience of maestronetters. This is also the one that I sent to Matt who got the answer to that question I asked in another thread, so maybe after he gets it, he can share his experience here with this experimental cutting.

>It

Michael - am I breaking any rules yet? :-)

Tim

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Wow. That thing looks really cool. Tim, I have to really applaud you for working on new designs. As much as I love the traditional shapes and appearences of string instruments, you have to believe there is something better out there. I wish I could have come up with the correct answer to your question! Let us know when you know more about the bridges, I'm really interested to hear more.

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quote:


Originally posted by:
djo2e

Would you explain your expectations and the theory behind them that

led you to this shape?

None really - I just drilled a hole in the thing that sits on my ouji-board, stuck a crayon in it, closed my eyes, and let it do the work - :-)

Really, I'll try to do a write up on it and post it at my website when I'm further along with it.

What's your name?

Tim

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quote:


Originally posted by:
nola

Wow. That thing looks really cool. Tim, I have to really applaud you for working on new designs. As much as I love the traditional shapes and appearences of string instruments, you have to believe there is something better out there. I wish I could have come up with the correct answer to your question! Let us know when you know more about the bridges, I'm really interested to hear more.

Thanks nola. You too seem like a creative thinker.

Tim

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Tim2: If your bridge is placed on violin as shown, the G side is the lower side and has less wood. Would this cause more overtones from that side? And if it is reversed in it's placement, would that cause more overtones on the E side? What effect does it have on tuning?

Ben Podgor

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Melving: Are you saying that the G cannot be the lower side because the hevier string being on that side would put things off balance, or because it would be impractical to play that way. How about a left handed player?

Ben Podgor

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quote:


Originally posted by:
Ben Podgor

because it would be impractical to play that way

The G side is generally higher for the string clearance. The image of the bridge is from the front, as if you were looking down from the fingerboard.

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Tim, have you measured the natural resonance of this bridge? It appears to me to be very stiff for the in-plane motion (motion involving where the waist used to be with conventional bridges) which would give it a very high resonance frequency, and the design is such that a luthier would not be able to remove wood to lower it.

I keep thinking you are one of those that can make these resonance measurements--do I remember correctly?

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Ah Tim, this is great and would look so good on my new modern violins & fiolins (www.violini.co.za). I just wish it were more economical to send them to South Africa. I may ask you to post some to a friend who lives in the USA and in turn he could post them to me....

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quote:


Originally posted by:
Ben Podgor

Tim2: If your bridge is placed on violin as shown, the G side is the lower side and has less wood. Would this cause more overtones from that side? And if it is reversed in it's placement, would that cause more overtones on the E side? What effect does it have on tuning?

Ben, about which side of the bridge is which. This one is obviously tuned for the E string above the large hole which is the correct cutting for this style bridge. You are of course correct in your possible assumption that in it's "blank" form it could be carved with the E string over either side, but it would not function in the way it is intended to.

About the creation of the overtones. That's a very good question and is probably on a lot of minds. A good violin and set of strings will create plenty of noticeable overtones. You may be thinking that if the bridge is designed in a way that allows a string to move easily for a longer time due to flexing of the bridge, or even free movement of the topside, that the overtones will be increased but that's not really the case. The violin itself is what needs to be moving to create the sounds you will hear - at least at any distance - so, even though a string may move more easily due to flexing within the bridge, or free movement of the topside, that actually results in removal of tone rather than a creation of tone. I should probably add - flexing of the bridge can and does play an important part in "defining" the tone, since flexing can create holes in the tone, thus creating a definition of the final tone.

Tim

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quote:


Originally posted by:
Mike_Danielson

Tim, have you measured the natural resonance of this bridge? It appears to me to be very stiff for the in-plane motion (motion involving where the waist used to be with conventional bridges) which would give it a very high resonance frequency, and the design is such that a luthier would not be able to remove wood to lower it. I keep thinking you are one of those that can make these resonance measurements--do I remember correctly?

Mike, you are correct about the free-standing resonant frequency that I think you are referring to.

Tim

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quote:


Originally posted by:
AMORI

Ah Tim, this is great and would look so good on my new modern violins & fiolins (www.violini.co.za). I just wish it were more economical to send them to South Africa. I may ask you to post some to a friend who lives in the USA and in turn he could post them to me....

I remember interracting with you about the shipping cost issue. Getting one to you via your friend does indeed seem like a cost efficient way to go about it.

Tim

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quote:


The G side is generally higher for the string clearance. The image of the bridge is from the front, as if you were looking down from the fingerboard.

You are correct. I went ahead and sent you one cut similar to the one shown above along with the blank so there would be no confusion when you began carving the blank.

Tim

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quote:


Originally posted by:
tim2

quote:


The G side is generally higher for the string clearance. The image of the bridge is from the front, as if you were looking down from the fingerboard.

You are correct. I went ahead and sent you one cut similar to the one shown above along with the blank so there would be no confusion when you began carving the blank.

Tim

Cool. Thanks.

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My impression is that this bridge is less, not more radical than what has come from you before, Tim. The two major differences are, first, that there is no freely-flexing waist area, and second, that there is a much larger void space that must be compensated by more thickness (if my assumption about the operating principle of the bridge is correct here.)

For the first, the empirical bridge-tuners I know use what I would loosely call the ur-Joseph Curtin technique--make it pretty first, then trim the waist until the violin answers the bow, then finish up any minor tonal adjustments with the eyes or heart. This design would seem to need an altogether more sophisicated technique, involving thinning in several areas.

Second, the large voids don't seem to leave much room for the final tonal adjustment--are we looking at a blank here, or a proposed finished bridge?

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Mike Danielson wrote:

>It appears to me to be very stiff for the in-plane motion (motion involving where the waist used to be with conventional bridges) which would give it a very high resonance frequency, and the design is such that a luthier would not be able to remove wood to lower it. <

I agree. I would expect a very high resonant frequency-this is a very stiff structure it would likely make a violin very bright sounding. But there are always surprises in the violin world. A trial with many different violins and luthiers will eventully reveal it's true charecteristics.

Tim2 Writes:

>The violin itself is what needs to be moving to create the sounds you will hear - at least at any distance - so, even though a string may move more easily due to flexing within the bridge, or free movement of the topside, that actually results in removal of tone rather than a creation of tone.<

The violin is not well designed to radiate sound in the critical 2500-3000Hz region. The (standard) bridge is designed so that it vibrates freely at this frequency(it's resonant frequency) and so it transmits extra vibrations at this frequency to the corpus to compensate for the loss of efficiency at this frequency.

I can't see this design working this way but, as I said only experimentation will privide a clear answer.

I hope that it works as well as it looks

Good Luck

Oded Kishony

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quote:


Originally posted by:
Dean_Lapinel

I think I understand the general concept Tim.

I'm thinking that you do too.

quote:


Do you keep the waist thickness even?

I'm not sure if I understand what you mean. If you mean do I suggest having somewhat of a "belly" within the middle section as is sometimes done with conventional bridges, the answer is yes.

Tim

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quote:


Originally posted by:
Mark_W

My impression is that this bridge is less, not more radical than what has come from you before, Tim.

I'm not sure what to think about that - I guess I was kinda hoping for the "radical" word to be applied here :-)

quote:


Second, the large voids don't seem to leave much room for the final tonal adjustment--are we looking at a blank here, or a proposed finished bridge

Certainly not a blank. The one shown is trimmed down. When finished, it weighs in at about 2.1 grams even with a waist area that may be just slightly thicker than some conventional tuned bridges. There is plenty of meat on the blank to allow for trimming. And of course, I can always custom cut a batch to practically any specification.

Tim

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quote:


Originally posted by:
Oded Kishony

I agree. I would expect a very high resonant frequency-this is a very stiff structure it would likely make a violin very bright sounding

Not bright at all. That has actually been one of my objectives with this bridge - NOT BRIGHT. That big hole that you could just about poke your head through helps get rid that.

quote:


The (standard) bridge is designed so that it vibrates freely at this frequency(it's resonant frequency) and so it transmits extra vibrations at this frequency to the corpus to compensate for the loss of efficiency at this frequency

That's not "quite right", but maybe I'm not completely understanding your idea. A bridge vibrating does nothing to induce vibration into the body. It actually cancels vibration - the advantage being, as I mentioned somewhere previously, is that it creates holes in the tone and these holes can enhance the tone, in a way, if they fall into the right places. I've learned a lot about these "holes" in the past few years or so with the 40 or so different bridge configurations I've created and experimented with. I've got some that have so many things hanging and vibrating, that I'm thinking about saving them in case we ever have a klingon invasion here on earth - I could probably use them as a bargaining tool for them to take home with them in exchange for them leaving the planet :-} Too many things shaking and rattling at various frequencies can really reak havoc on the tone unless you get it all happening at just the right frequencies - then it can work pretty well - but that's tough -

Tim

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Tim2 writes,

> A bridge vibrating does nothing to induce vibration into the body. It actually cancels vibration <

All you have to do is add a bit of weight to the bridge (such as a mute) to find out what reducing vibrations does to th sound ;-)

The bridge is transmitting vibrations from the strings to the corpus. The bridge will transmit more vibrations at it's resonant frequency. The analogy that comes to my mind is of sympathetic vibrations of strings. If you play G on the D string, the open G string will start to vibrate spontaneously. When the bridge is tuned to 3Khz it will vibrate more freely at that note and will then transmit the vibration to the body of the violin which then amplifies that range of notes (frequencies)

Anyway, best of luck with the bridge

Oded Kishony

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Oded;

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

The (standard) bridge is designed so that it vibrates freely at this frequency(it's resonant frequency) and so it transmits extra vibrations at this frequency to the corpus to compensate for the loss of efficiency at this frequency

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Tim:

That's not "quite right", but maybe I'm not completely understanding your idea. A bridge vibrating does nothing to induce vibration into the body. It actually cancels vibration -

I too am having some trouble understanding this premiss.

Could you elaborate on your assertion here?

This idea seems to be half right, but not the important half... since, by virtue of being a solid object under pressure, the bridge will indeed cancel (damp) some vibrations, its MAIN FUNCTION is to transmit them, and during the process, it vibrates.

During the process of playing it vibrates continuously. Are you saying that this is not correct?

Thanks,

ct

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