Bidding and Tarisio

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What is the likely pattern regarding bidding, e.g., do Tarisio

bidders generally wait to place their final bids until the last

minute, as happens on e-bay?  Would one expect a lot of "11th

hour" bids tomorrow?

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Hi piaffe,

As I understand it, the main difference between ebay and Tarisio is

there can be no snipping at the end of the Tarisio auction.

 What happens instead is if a bid is placed in the last few

minutes, the Tarisio auction is automatically extended so as to

give the other bidders time to bid again. I am not sure on the

amount of time but I thought is might be 10 or 15 minutes. Most

bidders will show up tomorrow and most lots will sell, but this

auction as of tonight seems to be behind its usual number of

violins that have already reached the reserve, so it will be

interesting to see what the final results are.

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Most Tarisio auctions seem to end up within shouting distance of their estimates. I was looking at the Skinner auction results on eBay, and found some items that finished well above the pre-auction estimates. It looked to me like overenthusiasm from floor bidders. Tarisio wouldn't even have touched a couple of these--an old German carcass with no scroll, for example, going for several thousand. Inexplicable.

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Well, as a lover of things klotzlich, I would prefer to see the scroll before judging the item. Even if it is a suspected Georg Klotz II fiddle (on account of constructional minutiae and a possibly genuine label), I'd say the Skinner's appraiser--David Bonsey or whoever--is closer to the real value than what that box went for. That's about what I'd pay at auction for a J.C. Klotz with a replaced scroll, in playing condition. It looks to me like some of these auctions are ending up in retail territory.

Actually, Andrew, I'd love to hear which events of the last two weeks were inexplicable--perhaps the reaction at Cannes to the DaVinci Code film? :-)


Actually, I was not talking about the G Klotz item, which I believe finished BELOW its estimate. I was talking about this:


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Yes, I could see about k$3, if you felt this was a genuine c.1775 A. Kloz. In that case, perhaps you could graft a scroll from an old German violin of similar style, do the rest of the work on the neck and board, and end up with a pretty nice, authentic instrument that could be sold at a profit.

I have to admit that A. Kloz is one of the murkiest members of the family for me to identify. The label is among those most frequently abused. Many an old shop Klotz with a grafted scroll could qualify, based on pictures in violin books. Did you examine this body? What did you notice in particular, if you don't mind my asking?

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Well, it looks to be a c.1800 Kloz. The varnish looks a bit redder and denser than I'm used to. That scroll doesn't strike a particular chord, based on either the Hamma or Jalovec books. The outline seems consonant with Jos. Kloz. All in all, I like it. Did you get a good deal on it?

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I have seen this slightly flared corner (particularly the upper bass side corner) on a number of instruments indicated as Kloz family, but not definitively Joseph. If anything, it seems to be more a characteristic of Matthias, though this doesn't appear to be of that vintage. In my experience, Joseph's fs have a tendency toward Amati styling, or even [sometimes] somewhat more of a Guarnerian look in a slightly flared lower wing. The outlines are often more streamlined than this as well - more slender, where this one appears slightly swollen in outline. Both Aegidius and Joseph also seemed to make quite a few smaller sized instruments (a sniff under 4/4 standards), where the other members had a tendency toward quite large instruments. There isn't one maker in particular this fiddle strikes me as, though clearly Kloz influence, if not family. The varnish looks about right to me. Kloz varnish can be quite dark and even opaqueish. The scroll is a bit too chunky for my liking, the throat area especially.

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I really didn't mean to claim to be an authority on differentiating between the various Klotz family members, I'm not aware of anyone in the U.S. who has mastered the "minutiae". It is easy enough to recognize old Mittenwald work, but since so much of it has been relabeled, it can be tricky to distinguish a high quality Mittenwald from a Klotz. In the case of the Skinner fiddle, I can only say the fiddle looked very good, was in good condition ( what was present), and the label appeared original, which often is not the case. This view was shared by at least 3 other professional people in the room. I think I erroneously called it a George earlier because the varnish was exactly like a George I know, a lighter brown. Bob, your fiddle looks closer to Joseph than George to me, based on the model and the varnish, but humility will keep me from going past that.

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Thanks all for your comments, i dont pretend to be an expert in Kloz instruments, i dont know anyone who is and just wanted any comments about it as i come across them quite regularly. It certainly wasnt a run of the mill Kloz copy but which Kloz i hadnt a clue. The auction house for some reason thought it was George.

Heres a pic of the label and scroll from the front.



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