How much will the 1929 XR Roth go for?

[john j]

Hi Everyone,

A new ebay offering is a 1929 XR (1725 Strad). I have not seen one

before and was wondering what this violin might fetch. It even has

all the original receipts and papers.

[Ron1]

I'll venture a guess of $6500-$7500

[kolovrat]

I would say that this particular instrument will sell for no less than $4000. It is a good find, but how will it sound?

[guta]

I am comfortable in assuming that this violin will sound excellent when well set up and well played in. This simply on the basis that all the Roths I have played sound quite good ( that is, the top line pre-war ones).

There is another Roth from the 20's on Tarisio, but this is head and shoulders above it.

Quite frankly, if it stays under 5K I might try for it. The more likely event is that it will go well above that.

[Fellow]

Hi all,

If I am going to pay $6k for this Roth, I expect that I could take it home and could try it for 10

days or so to see if I would like it or not. It must be from a shop. Most likely the shop would make a profit

of $1k for the deal. Since this is from e-bay, it hard to say what you can get, more or less it

depends on how good a reputation of the seller and the competition of the biddings.

A good Roth (top of line) has a ringing tone, quite responsive to your bow. However, there many contemporary luthiers make good violins, priced range from $5k-$8K, good copies of the masters.

For $12K and up , are made by luthiers with quite a name in US, if not in the world.

A Roth is still a Roth. Just my thought.

[guta]

Yuen - Yes, I agree that many fine contemporary violins can be had for about the same price as a top Roth.

But there are other considerations which enter in. Many players are attracted to older instruments, and nice examples are increasingly expensive and difficult to locate. There are still many Roths in really top, even mint condition, simply because they were mostly bought by parents for their children. Many of these violins were put down after a short period of lessons when the student lost interest. That, I believe, is the story of the Ebay example.

Then there is the brand name, which quite simply spells high quality. The top Roths have become more and more recognised, especially in the past 3 years, and are now sought out by professionals. They represent great value. If compared to their French counterparts in the same price range, e.g. Dieudonne, Blondelet etc., the French instruments look and sound harder, shriller, a bit too shiny, quite frankly a bit ticky-tack next to a Roth.

Then of course there is consumer psychology. Many people like buying into a franchise which is known for quality. This is part of the mystique of Hill bows. For the fashion conscious it works the same way with Gucci, Ferragamo, and all the other top manufacturers. I am mainly into violins, but if a friend offers me a pair of like new Gucci loafers, worn only once or twice for $100.00 I would snap them up.

This all sounds rather crass and commercial, I know that. But speaking for myself, If I spend a good chunk of money on something really fine, I want it to be a good investment, since I cannot afford to throw that kind of money away.

Cheers, Larry.

[guta]

Here's an update - I contacted the owner, and asked him if he would mind removing the chinrest and let me know if there are any cracks underneath. Also, since he is in California, I asked whether it would be possible for me to see it in person.

The reply was negative. He said he is "not comfortable removing hardware", and no, I cannot look at it in person as this would be unfair to those who cannot do so.

For me that is a deal- breaker. If a seller will not disclose, or show it in person , the buzzers start going off and the warning lights flash.

Bottom line - I'm out. I am happy to leave this one to the roulette players.

[kolovrat]

This fiddle will bring over $7K. People NEVER learn from the mistakes made in the past. It is a hunt that drives them. The feeling of getting closer to a prey, the rush of adrenaline... all these factors often overshadow reason and a simple calculation. Like hounds running in the circles of hyppodrome after a dummy rabbit, poor suckers forget that there is absolutely nothing in store for them. It is the observing crowd that gets satisfaction! Here is a good suggestion for all the bidders: THINK HUMAN! But then we shall be left without any entertainment.

[Fellow]

Hi Kolovirat,

I admit that I am not an expert on violins. Are there other sister name violins, like Curatoli,

Fickers, selling for $2k, basically same grade( top of the line) German violins. Good material

(densed grain, a lot of flames on back, ringing tone etc. old too, good copies of masters)) What are wrong with those sisters

of Roths? They label them differently, from same factory?

[kolovrat]

The quality of Roth's fiddles depends on the model. XR is, as far as I can remember, one of the highest ends (if not the top) of Roth line of violins. Interesting piece of trivia: at the end of his life, Mr. Roth made a set of instruments himself for his family members. These pieces are THE BEST of all modern German mass-produced instruments. Collectors on the know will die to get a fiddle like that!

The violin that is being sold on eBay is good, but not the best. The spruce on top is way too tight, the scroll's fullness and symmetry could have been a bit better.

Fickers are very fine violins! I love them! These violins are the same in quality as Roths. Most of them need regraduation due to the excessive thickness of the plates.

Curatoli, Loveri, Heberlines, Juzeks are very good as well. Heberlines and Loveri seem to be more consistent in quality, but lack the sound. Curatoli and Juzeks very much vary in the attention to the details, but sound VERY NICE. I should note from personal experience that Curatoli was the best commercial German violin; Ficker was too thick and therefore didn't have much resonance; Heberline was average, but with proper setup could very much improve; Juzeks--some good, some bad, some average; Curatoli was the best of all (but then I've only played on one).

Were these violins made on the same factory as Roths? Absolutely not! Although some of the makers could have easily worked for any other brand.

[Fellow]

Hi, Kolovrat,

I agree with you. One time I had a Ficker, it was too heavy for me. One time I had a Roth, I trades it away with a Bauer which I still own.

I have tried a very good Roth about 3 years ago ($6k), if I remember it correctly that it had better grains

(sharp and densed, a lot of intensive repairs, Chicago bridge) than this Roth on ebay. On the next day, it was sold. (so quick). As you said ,people who die to buy a such Roth. Juzek's master copy is good too. Only $3k. I saw it on

some ads. It is good time to save some money to buy or just practice more to make my cheap violin sound good. (lol)

[kolovrat]

I have played chamber music with Sarah Chang couple of weeks ago. Well, she had two del Gesu's: one that belonged to her,--an overworked fiddle, but definitely not the best,-- and a loaneri. She had consulted with me on which of the fiddles sound better; hers had more quality than the loaner due to the fact that the table of the loaner was way too thin for del Gesu (or any violin for that matter).

At the end of our rehearsal, I've asked Sarah to play a Hopf I had. Now, I don't remember ever hearing this Hopf sounding this way. I wouldn't say she had a more powerful sound than what I could pull out of it, but the timbre was so special. She loved it!

So, why is it that different folks,--keeping in mind that the technical abilities of the players are more or less equal and the instrument is adjusted to allow for a greater production of overtones,-- sound so unique on the same violin being played with the same bow? The answer is very simple: natural resonance of our bodies is unique to every person. The vibrations from a string travel everywhere, including our flesh, which is in direct contact with the instrument. And yes, we began to counteract the resonating body of the violin. Depending on the bone mass, muscle-fat ratio and water content proportions, the resulting vibrations will be unique to each and every person simply because we all are sligthly,--or not so slightly,-- different.

So, yuen, if I take your Bauer and start playing on it, the chances are it will sound very differently. It may like the natural resonance of my body or could hate it!

[Skreechee]

Weird but interesting theory. How about how thick your fingers are? How hard the tips of your fingers are? Mine are very hard but because I do a lot of work using my hands. I noticed my old violin teacher - who had small fingers and was half a foot shorter than me - could not get the volume out of her old Hungarian violin that I could. (I have long fingers quite square tips apart from my 4th which is not the best at reaching and the volume is lost on it too).

[Fellow]

Hi

I know anyone can make my Bauer sound better than I. Luckily, I have a few more old and better

violins to play. I think the instrument is only 20% responsible to the sound, 80% is from the player and the bow. I have a lot to work on the practice department. Long time ago, my violin professor told me

"you do not need any better violin" I did not understand then, but I have understood and learnt a lot now.

Violin (or strings) is extremely difficult an instrument to learn. Hundred things could go wrong just to

play a note on a violin. You cannot go wrong to play one note on a piano.

[kolovrat]

Sreechee, I guess my tips are medium hard (can't feel a hot tea pot when touching with the finger tips). Fingers are usually responsible for articulation, but the vibrations of the instrument pass through them as well. The sound is your right hand technique in combination with body weight (the weight of hand in particular).

Yuen, my teacher used to tell me that instrument is 60% of the playing, the rest is the musician. I guess it is arguable.

[Skreechee]

well I am not a fatty but I have seen some extremely good violinists who are I don't hold to body mass, sorry, but I do hold to the bow arm and the bow and there are many factors I think other than body vibrations. Technique, talent etc. holds more 'weight' imho.

I do agree that violins are important. Especially for learners as progression is bound to be quicker and less painful on a better sounding better set up instrument. Good players can make a 'junk' violin sound passable but a learner will make it sound like a 'junk' violin.

[kolovrat]

Oh, absolutely! Body factor is probably 5% of the sound! It creates a variety in timbres. That is why each individual player has his "own sound." But again, we are talking about extremely subtle details that great majority of folks will overlook.

[guta]

While we've been sitting around lolly-gagging (whatever that means) the Roth is now up to $5,443.-.

Granny Goose is in the lead. O,K, so I put in a couple of bids too, but there is no more bargain to be had.

I'm betting at least $6,500. Cheers, Larry.

Make that 7K. Looks like a feeding frenzy...

[john j]

Hi Mr. guta,

Thanks for your input along with all the others as I now have a second question. What do yu think the retail price would be of this Roth from a big dealer, as I have seen Roths from the 20s of a lower quality and number go for $8000 or more, but I have never seen a retail price for a XR?

[kolovrat]

john, XRs are more or less common. Few appear on the market due to the fact that dealers/collectors are reluctant to sell them, waiting for a greater price increase (which is bound to happen considering the qualities of XR's). This violin would retail from $8,000-10,000, with the last number being absolute top. As I said before, the quality of spruce on top is not the best, the scroll lacks artistry.

Interestingly enough, there is one more fiddle on eBay that should belong to the same category, [L=http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=7386151887&rd=1&sspagename=STRK%3AMESE%3AIT&rd=1[/L]]http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=7386151887&rd=1&sspagename=STRK%3AMESE%3AIT&rd=1[/L][/L]

This is an E. Martin from early 20s of exceptional quality. The price is low for now, but probably will rise to $1K. It looks like a real bargain

[guta]

Hi John J. - I would agree with Kolovrat that the top asking price for this Roth would be $10,000.-, for now at least. I recently saw a signed Roth with a 2 piece back asking 10K., not nearly as nice as this one. Yes, perhaps there is some artistry lacking in the scroll, but with most of the top Roths I believe there is great artistry in the varnishing and antiquing.

This is actually a rather important sale IMHO. If a new high is established and word gets out, which it would, the entire market for Roths will move up to over $10K. This is just speculation of course, but there are 3 days left and it's already 5.5K. Anything could happen...

[guta]

Sorry, my mistake - the current bid is $5,443.

Kolovrat - What is it about the table you don't like? I have always thought narrow grained spruce was considered better than wide grained.

[Ron1]

I think you guys are omitting the most important thing that will drive the price of this violin up- the papers that come with it. Without them, maybe 5.000 - 5,500; but they will easily add another thousand or two- and none of you are even mentioning them! How come?

[kolovrat]

Ron 1 is absolutely right! We completely forgot about the provenance part! Original certificate and sales receipt will add more that couple of thousands. Collectors go crazy for such papers and will pay God knows what!

guta, narrow graned spruce is good for a hurdy-gurdy. On a violin, such spruce creates a shrilling tone. Medium rings that are slightly narrower towards the center seam is the desired combination.

[guta]

Kolovrat, Not so sure I can agree with you on the narrow grain spruce statement. There are too many other variables coming into play to make that generalization, IMO. I've seen some nice Strads with narrow grain on table.

Re- papers etc. That is a nice array of documents to be sure, but let's not forget that Roths are self-explanatory. The brand with serial number is like a built in certificate, and tampering or other stuff that does not conform stick out like a sore thumb...