Violin Tone "Break-In"

[cinematto]

I have noticed that most wonderful newly made instrument already

has that broken-in sound. How does a luthier achieve this wonderful

thing? Does he have a player constantly play it before he varnishes

it and after. Or like some people i heard, subject a violin to a

speaker and play low/ subharmonic frequencies to vibrate the

instrument. Or is there a secret behind this that the experts would

want to share. I am inquiring because i played an instrument built

Aug. 2005 and compared it to a 19th century cremonese and boy does

it sound like its been played for ages... very big and open.

[AMORI]

Maybe some new instruments are more run-in than others but on the whole it takes forever to really break and instrument in. I've read 80 - 300 years! I don't think there is a substitute for playing many hours.

[MANFIO]

Every good maker will try to make an instrument that sounds good, open, and with a good paste from the very beggining, time and playing in will make it better, but it must be good from the very beggining, I think.

[Oded Kishony]

I think there are a few factors that help a new instrument break in faster. good construction with quality wood. I use bone glue rather than hide glue for new construction because it dries harder and therefore resembles old dried glue sooner. A varnish and ground that dry quickly and are applied as thinly as possible.

Oded Kishony

[DiemViolins]

I always use hide glue.

Are there any other luthiers using bone glue nowadays? Does it give a better sound in general? Would be nice to know.

[Mauricio]

Hi Oded,

are you talking about using bone glue as a ground or just in general?

[Oded Kishony]

Just in general.

OK

[Michael_Molnar]

There are a number of discussions on this topic of dedamping a new instrument. Try a search.

If you are really interested, I suggest that you check out the book, How to Improve the Resonance Conditions . . . , published by Strobel.

[Oded Kishony]

Have you tried the method described in Strobel's book Mr. Molnar?

Oded

[Michael_Molnar]

Not yet, Oded, but I have purchased all of the components. I am an astronomer (retired) and am truly intrigued by this process. But I don't think I will get around to running a test until late winter after I get back from a South American tour. When I get the setup running and a new violin to dedamp, I'll report back with results and photos. Stay tuned.

The reason I recommend the book is that it gives the essential ideas and procedures. You do not have to build the power supply he describes. You can get all of the items rather inexpensively from eBay or Internet electronic shops.

Mike

[monroe]

Dont think it matters how a violin is constructed{old or new} it needs to be played in.I have recomended and still do ,that the violin be tyed to a large speaker with the bridge toward the speaker and let the viberatrion from the speaker break in the violin.You can leave it on all the time when you arent playing.Works good for me.

Monroe

[fiddlefaddle]

I am of the opinion that a good instuments lacks very little when new, and the quality of tone, power , and projection are immeadiatly apparent..

Thje term "breaking in" is a lousy excuse for a lousy instrument.

However, a good instrument does take years to mature, and will improve.

Improvement come from wood maturation. New wood is translucent.

Old wood is opaque.

It also come from playing.

Andrew Victor suggested long ago, a sonicare tooth brush.

It vibrates near the Corpus Mode of C# , and can simply be rested on the bridge.

If such is your Fancy.

[Wolfjk]

Hi cinematto,

-------I have noticed that most wonderful newly made instrument already has that broken-in sound. How does a luthier achieve this wonderful thing?-------

Perhaps it is relevant that both new and old instruments are set up by present day makers and repair men. Most new instruments are copies or modelled on classical instruments and the set up is dictated largely by the requirements of present day players.

Cheers Wolfjk

[Michael Darnton]

I think the lack of acceptance of "playing in" is a reflection of modern can't-wait-for-anything attitudes. I also know that I've made quite a few violins that didn't sound like anything at all at the start, and have turned out to be the best I've made. A good sound at the start is often a sign that the maker has done things that sacrifice long-term quality for immediate salability.

[cinematto]

Thanks guys!

Any hints on how to determine then if a violin has a very good

potential sound? in months or years to come?

I know somebody who comissioned and instrument to a good luthier

that he trusts. he doesnt really like the sound at first but

trusted the makers work and thought the violin will "soon" unravel

its real potential. Three years later, a once tiny sounding fiddle

just got a lot better.... bigger. He did mentioned that it took a

while gor him to realize the strings that will fit it most...

[cinematto]

I also have no access to the above mentioned books but what is the

most basic dampening method? People said Yehudi Menuhin used a

cloth to both protect the instrument from perspiration and dampen

it at the same time.

[Selim]

Really I would like to know what you mean by "big and open sound". Is It a loud sound or rich sound or both?

A loud sound is a big amplitude sound and even might be a ringing tone but still a sound of narrow frequency range and I am afraid It may not be a good sound. This kind of sound would appear as a thin bell shaped curve on Amplitude-versus-frequency graph. I think there are several free frequency analyser softwares to understand this easily.

A rich sound on the other hand would be a pattern including a wide spectrum in the range that human ear coul hear. It would be a fat bell-shaped, almost rectangular graph.

I think the quality of sound is a characteristic which includes both richness and loudness(wide frequency spectrum + high amplitude).

Well, It is a fact as the amplitude increases, as the sound gets louder a certain frequency becomes more dominant and all other frequencies can not be heard, at he end this may not be a good quality of sound.

This is a subject I have a big apetite and this thread is a good oppotunity to get some, I will appreciate any advices and ideas.

Thanks.

[Andrew Victor]

"Andrew Victor suggested long ago, a sonicare tooth brush.

It vibrates near the Corpus Mode of C# , and can simply be rested on the bridge.

If such is your Fancy. "

I was about to mention that (again) and here you beat me to it. That violin (that I bought at the end of year 2000) always seemed to have to much high end above where it contributed to tone quality (is that "hiss"?). So it ended up in its case for a few years. I pulled it out again this past spring when I tried Vision (and Vision Ti) strings on it, but Obligatos seemed better (with a Kaplan Solutions E string). This time around the violin - at least under my ear - beats anything else I have and I've been playing it ever since. Still very much on the bright side but no "hiss."

So - was it the Sonicare at ~60 Hz or was it resting in the case for a couple of years?

Andy

[Michael Darnton]

That would be my experience with violins--no matter what you might say about them new, in a couple of years, even without much playing, they're completely different. I had one that was so bad that I wouldn't even show it for almost three years. Just last week it was bought by a very prominent local player who really does "know the difference". It's just incredible now.

[fiddlefaddle]

Hi Andy, I'd bet you didn't know we were paying such carefull attention.

Glad to see a few of the "heavies" chiming in on this thread.

Personally, I don't like to factor in things like strings.

I would rather have a violin that sounded good with lousy strings, than one that needed good strings to sound.

As a optimistic amatuer maker, I like to look critically at the things I can DO, in the processs of construction, to make a difference.

As yet I don't have the time, or aptitude to consider the esoterica.

Now When Oded says I should be using Bone glue, THAT gets my attention.

and Michael, I'd be willing to bet that you KNEW those fiddles were winners the first time they sounded.

[Michael Darnton]

No, they genuinely sucked. I was pretty distraught, *especially* about the one I mentioned. Then they came around great.

I had a discussion once with Bob Bein where I suggested that del Gesu probably wouldn't be able to sell any of his late violins (the thick ones, the REALLY great ones) now because modern players had to have good NOW, and he agreed.

I just got a commission yesterday for one, by the way, from someone who does have the patience and the confidence to know that it's going to work out just fine. Customers like that are few and far between, but what they get in the end makes it well worthwhile.

[Oded Kishony]

Hi,

I don't mean to imply that if you use bone glue your instrument will sound great immidiately but that there are small things that can add up. It seems obvious that if your glue resembles old glue sooner it will have a positive effect on the sound or your instrument.

As to sound spectrum analysis. There's a very interesting article in the 'VSA Papers' by Oliver Rodgers where he compares the spectograms of prize winning violins at the last VSA meeting with an example of a Strad.

The Strad is obviously different-one is struck that there are far more peaks ( greater modal density) and they're more uniformly distributed (even tone production)

Oded

[M_A_T_T]

When people talk about sticking a violin in front of a speaker to vibrate it, is it some kind of frequency or actual music? If it's actual music, would a certain music be better, such as classic or solo violin, or heavy metal?

[GMM22]

FWIW, I am incredulous about sticking a violin in front of a speaker. I think that if one were to quantify the sound energy from a violin being played vs. a violin situated in front of a speaker absorbing and re-radiating energy, the difference would be of an order of magnitude or greater; not that a speaker would have no effect, but rather that it would be minimal at best.

In other words, the sound pressure from a speaker would need to be so immense to approach anything similar to actual playing that the drone of those accelerating their break in periods would likely be audible to local police, wherein the jails would soon be full of well intentioned but noise polluting violin makers.

[mandovoodoo]

quote:

---

Originally posted by:

GMM22

FWIW, I am incredulous

about sticking a violin in front of a speaker. I think that if one

were to quantify the sound energy from a violin being played vs. a

violin situated in front of a speaker absorbing and re-radiating

energy, the difference would be of an order of magnitude or

greater; not that a speaker would have no effect, but rather that

it would be minimal at best. In other words, the sound pressure

from a speaker would need to be so immense to approach anything

similar to actual playing that the drone of those accelerating

their break in periods would likely be audible to local police,

wherein the jails would soon be full of well intentioned but noise

polluting violin makers.

---

Whatever working model you're thinking of is incorrect.  This

is a very clear effect, especially on underbuilt trade violins that

vibrate easily when new. I used to do this for the

better instruments when I had someone coming over to test them out.

 Guitars, too.  Perhaps more so.

Humidity cycling appears to be effective, too.