Sebastien Vuillaume pictures

[Guest]

Wow,

Very interesting discussion!

 Jeff, Here are some

pictures that may be of help. Steve

[Guy_Gallo]

This model, this age, I'd go with French, Hungarian-Czech, and British.

Of those three, I'd say it isn't French. Precisely because it is "not real crisp."

[Jeffrey Holmes]

Thanks Guy. I knew you were out there lurking. :-)

Say, did we have a picture tutorial at one point dealing with the major models (Strad, Guarneri, et.)? I seem to remeber it, but can't seem to find it when I search... I was going to add a lin for Rich.

I'll wait for a couple more answers before adding the next question. Don't be shy.

[fiddlecollector]

I would say all of them apart from French which even in the cheapest productions generally have crisp lines.

(though not sure about American but they tend to be along similar lines to many late 19th century British instruments)

Also Italians tend not to be antiqued ,with some few exceptions .

[Jeffrey Holmes]

Thanks fiddlecollector.

I'll pipe up and say that I it does not strike me as a North American violin based on the outline (and other features we have yet to cover).

So far we have:

Possibly German, Czech, Hungarian, British

and:

Probably not Italian, French, North American

The world is getting smaller...

Anyone else? I'll wait for one more opinion before the next question.

[Jeffrey Holmes]

Rich;

Here's a link to a photo from another ID thread illustrating Strad, del Gesu and Stainer back outlines (in that order).

Thanks to falstaff for finding this. :-)

Link

[pahdah_hound]

I am glad I found this thread. I am also fashionably late. I hope I can still join the party.

Maybe I am less observant than most but i have trouble with the outline model thing. I need to see details that I can pin down for sure. I believe that I see very tiny f hole nicks. I recognize this as a trait I have been told is Hungarian. I have seen antiqued violins that I was told were Hungarian. I also know Hungarian violins are considered good, in general better than common 100-150 year old Czech or German violins. Maybe that is because there were fewer Hungarian factories or workshops doing mass export with the US.

The violin looks good to me. It is the type of thing that, properly presented on eBay would bring a good deal of interest. But so do Magginni copies. I know what a good Juzek looks like and although there seem to be some similarities, the style of the antiquing is different, although I know Juzek used grafted scrolls on some of the best. The scroll doesn't have the flattened forehead of many German scrolls.

So I will weigh in on the Hungarian side, although I am sure I have insufficieant evidence for it to hold up in court.

I just took another look at the photos. I think there is a clue there somewhere. Is the violin by Sterilite?

I believe he is a well-known Hungarian maker, isn't he?

Sorry

Jesse

[Jeffrey Holmes]

Thanks Jesse;

I think the details (f hole nicks, neck grafts, pin size & placement) come in handy after an idea of school of making presents iteself. I'm trying to show that here by working from the ouside in. If you didn't have a "feel" for what the instrument might be (or isn't) before noting these details, they wouldn't be as useful.

So I'm going to back things up a bit.

What we have so far:

An antiqued Strad model violin, est. age of about 100 to 150 years, posssibly German, Czech, Hungarian, or British.

If we're correct in this alone, we've answered Thor's initial question.

Next two questions:

1) What, if anything, can you tell by origin by looking at the materials. Have you seen similar looking wood used (or not used) in any of the above "schools"? This is probably the more difficult of the two questions.

2) Does the antiquing style (the pattern, the "dirt" and texture, varnish color and texture, ground color, etc.) remind you of any instruments you've seen? If so, were they from any of the "schools" listed above? Which ones??

[Jacob]

The varnish colour and type of antiquing, and some aspects of the scroll, are things which make me suspect that this is by a maker who isn't French, but based his Strad model on a 19th-century French interpretation of Strad.

I've not seen enough British violins of the time to rule that either in or out, ditto Hungarian. I've never seen a German violin looking like that. However, Czech is possible - quite a few Bohemian makers of the mid-19th century were French trained or influenced.

[Guest]

Ok,

This looks like fun. The aging and texture of the

red-orange varnish looks like this violin.  

It is French.

 Steve

The violin I am comparing with is called "Back.gif"

[fiddlecollector]

Looking at the wood used ,which is slab cut, this is very common amongst Czech(bohemian) and Hungarian makers,less common in German makers who tended to use fine figured quarter cut material in all grades of violins. The red coloured varnish is typical of czech and some hungarian makers,not so common amongst British who tended to use more brown/amber coloured shades of varnish or often dirty looking purplish red shades.

The style of antiquing with huge areas of varnish missing on the back says Bohemian/Hungarian.As does the what looks like one coloured top coat of varnish put on a waxy/gluey looking ground coat.

[Jeffrey Holmes]

Hi Steve;

Just about everything (antiquing, varnish color, woodwork, outline, etc.) on the "new" violin photo you added is different than on the violin in your possession. Although the new photo is of poor in quality, I'd say it was much more likely to be a Vuillaume family Strad model instrument than is the violin that is the subject of this thread. It's like the case of similar subjects by a different painters.

Thanks to fiddlecollector' & Jacob for their posts. Nicely presented. I'll write what I believe further down in this post.

So, let's go back and review again;

We feel we have an antiqued Strad-ish pattern violin, 100 to 150 years old, with varnish showing texture, ground, materials and wear pattern likely used by Czech or Hungarian makers.

Although we can't have the opportunity to inspect the making style first hand, there are a few details that show up in the photos. After narrowing things down, this would be the time to use them. The useful details I noticed were:

The oval, almost Mittenwald-ish eye of the scroll.

The pins; large, dark and placed well inside the purfling line.

The crinkled texture of the varnish.

The simple, not too crisp, button at the neck.

The width of the pegbox when viewed from the back.

I say the following with the admission that I am not "strong" on the Hungarian school outside some of the better known makers. Many, but certainly not all, Hungarian violins that I've seen have a slight "cut" at the sides of the button (the edge line is continued into the side of the button). I think the pin size and placement would be unusual for Hungarian as well, but maybe not impossible.

So, with the understanding that these observations are based solely on internet photos without the opportunity to examine the instrument first hand:

My overall impression of this violin was that it is possibly Czech, or Czech/Germanic; and closer to 100 years old than 150. The antiquing pattern and varnish color reminds me a bit of what was later used on instruments sold under various Markneukirchen labels (by observation, I think some of these may have been Czech made on contract, but I don't have documents to prove it), but the overall look of these later violins was enhanced by a bit by use of a more intense ground color and the wood selection. I have seen Czech instruments made with details, in part or in whole, matching those I listed above. ...and yes, Ron, it seems that some Czech makers did graft scrolls on new instruments :-)

I should note that whoever did make this instrument placed the f holes in a much better position than is seen on a number of Bohemian instruments.

I would not eliminate the Hungarian attribution without an opportunity to see the violin first hand.

I don't think it is French or has anything to do with the Vuillaume family.

This process leaves us at a point that one could do research in a photo archive or compare this instrument to others that are similar (or by a suspected maker if you had one in mind), if access to an archive or similar instruments were available (and the desire to do so is present). Archves and comparisons might either yield results, not yield results, or cause one to start over. As Jacob noted toward the beginning of the thread, to truely ID an instrument, one has either seen one or hasn't. Narrowing the field of possibilities allows a person to expand what they have seen and confirm and/or refine their observations.

[fiddlecollector]

On the simple balance of the pins,id probably be swayed more to the Czech than Hungarian, after looking at a few Hungarian pics, they seem to rarely use them . Of the few Hungarian violins ive had they didnt have any either.

[Guest]

Wow,

 Very interesting.  Anyway, I guess I have my answers

now.

 The reason as to the question if it was a real

one or not,  I wanted to know if I should take it to a pro to

have the top cracks fixed.  .....Guess I can't hurt anything

on an old Czech violin.  I always hated taking off tops

though:-(

 Thanks for everyones input, Steve

 

[Jeffrey Holmes]

The violin is probably worth having checked over, especially if you lke the sound. If the cracks are unstable, you might want to have them repaired properly. If they are stable (just ugly) maybe wait until something else requires removal of the top.

[Jacob]

Thanks for this tutorial Jeffrey - there were things you pointed out that I've never thought about. I wish this kind of thing could become a regular feature, there is so much we can learn that way.

[Guest]

Jeff,

The cracks (it appears) had been glued at one time, but have come unglued, probably due to heat. When the violin was played I could hear buzzing....not good. Definately needs a fix.

If repaired by a pro, what should I expect to pay for cracks?

Steve

[miles]

quote:

---

Originally posted by:

Jacob

Thanks for this tutorial Jeffrey - there were things you pointed out that I've never thought about. I wish this kind of thing could become a regular feature, there is so much we can learn that way.

---

Ditto.

This is the best Sherlock Holmes of violin I ever read. Great guiding outlines for an aspiring violin detective to carry in his pocket.

Thanks a lot, Jeffrey.

[Jeffrey Holmes]

Thanks Jacob & Miles. I enjoyed it too. :-)

Steve, The repair bill will vary depending on what pro you use... I'd go to the most reputable one you have access to and get an estimate, consider the pros and cons, and decide from there.

[pahdah_hound]

I desperately need threads like this. Thank you Jeff! and also to the other contruibutors who add a lot. I thought that by the time i had handled 1000 violins, I would have a good basis for making IDs. I have found that assumption to be wrong. I consider myself a fast learner. I figured out eBay right away. Figured out digital cameras and lighting very fast. I can predict how much a violin will sell for in one of my auctions, without having a clue what it is. And I can identify soem violins-particularly less expensive workshop violins from France and Germany. Also American violins are obvious to me very often. The more familiar I become the more I like the top American violins. Perhaps it is the very quirkiness and originality that they are, or that the are less often carbon copies like other violins in this price range are. Some also sound just super.

One of the great difficulties is learning violin ID is that there is often no way to know if one is right or wrong about their observations and assumptions. Threads like this fill that void.

Thanks again,

Jesse

[Ron1]

I'd like to register my "thanks" to everyone for this thread too. I mostly lurk on these threads, but I enjoy These 'tutorials', which may be the only way many of us can learn some of the basics- not having the chance to see and handle a lot of instruments. I still can't identify the basic outlines :-( would it be cheating to have outlines to overlay on pictures?

[Guy_Gallo]

For the newcomers: you can do a search of the peg box using the following terms: Identification or Quiz or Tutorial, A Few Good Backs, A Few More Good Backs, A Few Great Backs -- I know that these searches will turn up some of the previous quizes and tutorials.

[Option1]

Just another thanks to Jeffrey, Thor and the other contributors. Really interesting stuff!

Only problem is I can't see any pictures. Is it just me?

Neil

[Jeffrey Holmes]

Hi Neil;

Thor removed the photos. I do hope he returns them. I get the impression he was not all that pleased with the conclusions.

I think it's worth mentioning that no one suggested the fiddle in question was "cheap". I actually thought it was rather decent.

[Jacob]

Jeffey, I agree. I've handled some really nice Bohemian/Czech violins ranging from the 1700's to 20th-century, one of the later ones being a really nice Karel Vavra from the 1960's. I believe they can retail for well over $10K.

Thor's violin looked like a maker's violin to me, not a trade fiddle - what do you think?