Sebastien Vuillaume pictures

[Guest]

Friends,

I am going to try and repost my pictures.

My question:

Is this violin a genuine Sebastien Vuillaume or just an old

fiddle?

The violin has a label that says:

"Sebastien Vuillaume a Paris

27 Boulevard Bonne Nouvelle (SV)"

It is fully blocked and lined and the interior shows very nice

workmanship. The bass bar is very elegant in shape.

The violin was played very much as there are wear marks down to the

wood... apart from the false aging.

There are a few standout characteristics on the violin that I

have seen on some of JBV's works. Ex: If you'll look at the closeup

of the back next to the heel. There are spidery black stringy

things in the finish. Also as seen in JBV and Sebastien V's work

the back and front has a false aging in the orange

finish.

As for the voice of this instrument, I cannot describe it.  It

is beyond my understanding that a violin can sound so

BIG!!! The sound is so enchanting. Never in my life have I ever

heard a violin give such a deep mellow cutting sound.

 This is definately a keeper.

What are your opinions?

[Ron1]

Based on the pictures posted I am suspicious that the graft is not real. I'm no expert on SB, but in any case, it appears you have an instrument that pleases both your eye and your ear. What more could be fairer?

[Guest]

Ron,

Yeah those pictures showing the graft are not so clear. Well actually none of my pictures are clear enough. My digital camera seems to be dying

As for the graft , it is real. The guy that made the old violin was very talented. The neck and scroll must be out of the same tree. On grain running from the neck into the scroll, some of the grain appears to match up, but at an angle. Of course not all the grain matches, but this is tough to see considering my pictures are bad.

I will post better pictures tomorrow of this area.

Thanks, Stephen

[Fellow]

HI,

Usually I like BIG sound violin. However, BIG sound sometime could be disgusting.

One time I had a violin like that after 11 months's playing I could no

longer stand it. It ended up trading it with anoher violin of sweet but less sound

[fiddlecollector]

Theres nothing wrong with the graft it quite neatly done and is of a style commonly used by the French.

[jackc]

Bob, when you say "of a style commonly used by the French" are you referring to the fact that the pegbox wall part of the graft ends in a butt joint as opposed to feathering out where it meets the scroll pegbox wall?

[Ron1]

Does the violin bear a date on it's label? I think SV's productive years were post-modernization, as far as neck angles are concerned. Coupled with the almost perfectly matched neck & scroll woods at the graft, it would seem this graft would have been done for 'antiquing' effect only (at the time it was built).

[Jeffrey Holmes]

OK... A few of you are getting hung up on neck grafts. I haven't met an expert yet that can ID a violin by neck graft alone.

To answer Jack's question; Yes, the "French style" graft ends butt joint rather than being feathered out until it meets the interior pegbox wall. Just because the graft is "French style", doesn't mean it was performed in France, however.

In my opinion, the best way to "look" at a violin is to ignore the attribution (label). The initial questions might well be: Do the parts seem to go together? What is the model? How old do you think it is? In which country might it have been made?

Any ideas?

[Guest]

Perhaps these pictures will give better

definition to what model it may be patterned after.

As for the neck graft, it appeas to have been done the same time as

the violin. In one area....very hard to see, there is a bit of the

red-orange finish on both the neck side and the scroll side.

The violin does not have a date.

I need to apologize about the nasty photos. I can take some high

quality ones on Saturday if anyone needs them.

[Jeffrey Holmes]

Much better Thor. Thank you.

OK, I'm curious. Any ideas out there?

fiddlecollector; I know you have some... :-)

[fiddlecollector]

I dont think its French!!

Possibly Hungarian but likely German.

[Ron1]

Am I imagining it, or what? The corners on the front seem to be much "stubbier" or worn-down, than the corners of the back.

[Ron1]

Jeffrey- what would be the point of a maker using the same or almost exactly matched wood when doing a graft if they wanted the instrument to appear older? They must have known folks would know the graft was done when the instrument was made! Sorry to keep beating this graft thing, but I'm really curious. Maybe grafts were just "in" when it was made, and the maker was showing off his talent?

[Jeffrey Holmes]

Hi Ron;

I don't know, as I haven't held the instrument. It's possible it was done during the make, or possibly later for a variety of reasons. Some makers; George Wulme-Hudson for one; often, or always, grafted their necks. It could be that the wood matches less well "in person", but the camera and lighting are blending the two pieces together in the photo.

This all goes to my point, though. It's really only a detail to be considered after other characteristics have been examined.

fiddlecollector; please tell us more about your thoughts.

Jesse; Are you out there? Jacob?

[M_A_T_T]

quote:

---

Originally posted by:

Ron1

Am I imagining it, or what? The corners on the front seem to be much "stubbier" or worn-down, than the corners of the back.

---

Spruce wears faster than maple becasue it's softer.

[Jeffrey Holmes]

OK. We've had a good number if ID threads on this forum. You all can probably get pretty close to this one if you follow the trail... I'm willing to help by showing how one thing leads to another if you wish.

Let's try it this way:

First question. What's the model? Choose one.

Guarneri

Amati

Stradivari

Stainer

[Jacob]

Jeffrey, I'm no good at this sort of thing - either I have seen something before, or I haven't.

But with the way you suggest to do this, count me in.

Strad model.

Next?

PS - there are currently only photos of the back and front. Before we proceed any further we'll probably need a head and a side-on shot - BTW, I didn't have any problems with the quality of the photos which were up before, and to me it most certainly looked like a real graft.

[Victor_Zak]

Could I suggest that, as one "votes" for various options (e.g. Strad vs. Guarnari vs. Amati, etc.) one also provide the reasoning for the choice made?

That would perhaps help some of us novices (me anyways...) in understanding the details involved in identifying violins better.

[Richf]

I'll go with Amati model for starters -- not the fholes, but just the outline. The pleasant roundness makes me think of early violins before everyone started copying Strads. Once I'm with Amati, then I would start thinking Germany or Central Europe because they stuck with that tradition longer.

Jeffrey, could you pass on a suggestion to the designers of the board. Could we replace those violins in the Photo Gallery with a selection that usefully conveys the basic models. Say, a Golden Strad, a Long Strad, the Paganini Guarnerius, some Nicolaus Amati and Stainer (I wouldn't know what years best reflect what we think of as Amati and Stainer), and maybe a couple others (say, something French, something Mittenwald)? Then we could all be using the same vocabulary when we say "Strad" model, etc.

[Jacob]

I don't think the c-bouts and corners say "Amati".

[Jeffrey Holmes]

Glad to see see some responses.

It's a Stradivari model... This is especally evident in the f holes and the corners/cbouts as Jacob mentioned.

Rich notes a "pleasant roundness", and I understand what he's saying, but I think in this case it's a departure from the model. We'll get to that.

Next;

Can you roughly estimate the age? Is the violin:

Less than 50 years old

50 to 100 years old

100 to 150 years old

150 to 200 years old

200 to 300 years old

[Jacob]

100-150.

[Richf]

Jacob, you're forcing me to confess my convoluted thinking. The C bouts didn't look like the squarish Strad Ds or the Guarneri open Cs. So what's left? Amati. I know I should be looking at other features, too. But I didn't see anything particularly Strad or Guarneri like in the outline or the f holes either (although these f holes are not N. Amati either, or even particularly German looking). The wings are too wide for Strad and not open enough for Guarneri. There, have I rambled enough...........

[Jacob]

Rich, I do think those f-holes look like "generic" Strad ones. There are some Strad f-holes which I find difficult to recognize (the post-1720 ones especially), but the "generic" Strad shape and flutings are easy to recognize. The c-bouts to me seem pretty much based on the square Strad-type.

My guess of age is based on the wear of the back edges and the upper treble shoulder of the back. The wear on the center of the back I think might be at least partly artificial.

I'm quite intrigued by this "tutorial" which Jeffrey has offered. At some point I will bomb out, because I know less than nothing about Hungarian violins. I don't think the instrument is mass-produced, and I think I see (on the corpus) some French ideas, but the head doesn't speak French to me.

But let me not jump the gun.

Master Jeffrey, next question?

[Jeffrey Holmes]

OK... Before the next question, let's review what we think we've figured out so far. I believe we have:

An "antiqued" strad model, a little "off" the classic lines (not real crisp; this is important).

An instrument made around 100 to 150 years ago.

Next question:

What (very broad) schools of making might have been likely to produce a violin with the attributes (model, antiquing) listed above between 1850 and the early 1900s:

French

Italian

German

Hungarian and/or Czech

British

North American

All of the above

Question after:

Which of the schools that you picked from the list above do you NOT feel the instrument belongs to, and why? Only eliminate the schools that you feel you can...