LARRY CADLE Posted November 20, 1999 Report Share Posted November 20, 1999 DOES ANY ONE HAVE ANY SUGGESTIONS ON GETTING UPS TO PAY FOR A BROKEN INSTRUMENT? I RECENTLY SOLD A FIDDLE ON EBAY FOR 300.00 IT WAS IN EXCELLENT CONDITION AND PACKED WELL WHEN I SHIPPED IT. WHEN IT GOT TO IT'S DESTINATION IT HAD A BAD CRACK IN THE BACK , IN THE SOUND POST AREA. UPS PICKED UP THE FIDDLE FROM THE PERSON I SHIPPED IT TO, KEPT IT ABOUT A MONTH AND TOOK IT BACK TO THAT PERSON. THEY NEVER NOTIFIED ME OR ANYTHING. I FINALLY GOT TO TALK TO SOMEONE AT UPS AND THEY TOLD ME THAT SINCE THE OUTSIDE BOX WAS NOT CRUSHED IT COULDN'T BE THEIR FAULT. JUST WONDERING IF ANYONE ELSE HAS HAD ANYTHING LIKE THIS HAPPEN? THANKS Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
steveg Posted November 20, 1999 Report Share Posted November 20, 1999 I had photos of the back of the instrument prior to shipping, the package was prepared by Mail Boxes etc. (a UPS subsidiary) and marked fragile. I got them to admit that it was possible that the box was dropped, but not damaged. They paid $900.00 but it took 6 months. When the representative came to deliver the check, they asked for the violin, and then stepped on it to ensure that it could not be repaired. steve Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve Posted November 20, 1999 Report Share Posted November 20, 1999 Seems like UPS have been rather naughty lately. They've now been hit with a $14 billion lawsuit: http://cnnfn.com/1999/11/19/companies/ups/ Cheers, Steve : I had photos of the back of the instrument prior to shipping, the package was prepared by Mail Boxes etc. (a UPS subsidiary) and marked fragile. : I got them to admit that it was possible that the box was dropped, but not damaged. They paid $900.00 but it took 6 months. : When the representative came to deliver the check, they asked for the violin, and then stepped on it to ensure that it could not be repaired. : steve Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brian Buckley Posted November 21, 1999 Report Share Posted November 21, 1999 Wow! Having read the stories posted about deliveries I consider myself lucky. I recently had an instrument sent to me internationally through UPS and got it in tact with only the soundpost rattling inside - otherwise no problems. I did however take two precautions - I went personally to the airport to collect it at the freight terminal rather than waiting for delivery (I calculated it would be quicker and cut out the possibility of local "less careful" sub-contractors handling the delivery). ... and secondly I opened the package and case immediately in front of a UPS representative as witness in case there might be any such problems. But I don't know what would have happened if I had found the instrument in more than one piece! I also had an unbelieveable experience with UPS delivering a package of sheet music - again internationally. They promise 5-6 days (and so it should be for the price one pays). I was told the package was sent in mid-August and received it early October. Once I was told they could not deliver ( I had given both address and phone number) and the package apparently returned to sender. Again it was re-sent and despite two addresses and two phone numbers, constant checking by use of what the call "tracking number", I heard nothing but reassurances and eventually found the package "dumped" at the door of the alternative address without so much as a contact by phone. The whole episode caused both me and the sender a lot of unnecessarily wasted energy and I resolved to avoid using the service again. The ultimate ironly being that another three weeks later a second package arrived completely unannouced and (again without a phone call) to the second address containing a complete replica of the original order. On contacting the sender they claimed to know nothing about it and told me to keep it or give it away. omobono. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Al Stancel Posted November 21, 1999 Report Share Posted November 21, 1999 Hello: I've always been able to get UPS to pay, after their first refusal. When something is damaged and the box looks ok, I take a tire iron to it before I call them. (grin)...kidding! An expert at getting UPS to pay is Marsha, sunsiray@westriv.com. Good luck, Al Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David Tseng Posted November 21, 1999 Report Share Posted November 21, 1999 Hey, you guys, take it easy! I just bought some UPS stocks. I have shipped many many violin by UPS and not a single one was damaged. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
steveg Posted November 21, 1999 Report Share Posted November 21, 1999 13 pound package to Japan, UPS $275.00, United States Post office Express Mail $67.00, and the post office had it there in 24 hours. UPS = Universal Price Shock. steve Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andrew Posted November 21, 1999 Report Share Posted November 21, 1999 So, they even stepped on it to assure that they get their money's worth!! Goodness, what a waste, and an insult for the owner. Maybe they did it with a grin too. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mark_W Posted November 21, 1999 Report Share Posted November 21, 1999 Hello, Al, (BTW, Marsha related her UPS horrors in an e-mail to me--they are informative reading.) Do you most often find "crushing" damage, or what I would call "acceleration" (dropping or throwing) damage? It seems that the usual violin shipment is in some sort of case, packed within a standard 9"x16"x34" carton, using packing peanuts and no additional bracing. The violin I received recently in this manner arrived strung up, nearly to standard pitch. It was in good condition, but I was somewhat surprised. Hardshell case notwithstanding, I still think I would prefer to use bracing and to let the string tension off to minimize acceleration stresses....Any thoughts on this? Regards, Mark W. : Hello: : I've always been able to get UPS to pay, after their first refusal. When something is damaged and the box looks ok, I take a tire iron to it before I call them. : (grin)...kidding! : An expert at getting UPS to pay is Marsha, sunsiray@westriv.com. : Good luck, : Al Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Al Stancel Posted November 22, 1999 Report Share Posted November 22, 1999 Hello Mark: When a violin is shipped with the bridge up and string tension on, care to secure everything is needed: packing firmly under the fingerboard, packing under the tailpiece/fine tuner, packing around the bridge and between the bridge/fingerboard....bridge/tailpiece, packing between the scroll and the case insides packing so the violin is not supported by the scroll in any way, and the violin firmly packed inside a case so the instrument can move in no direction...bubble pack between the top and the bow holders. Then, the case inside a cardboard box with foam peanuts firmly packed all around. The inertial hammer effect is what ruins a violin, if not packed well. If the neck can be broken out, it will; if the post can be made to go through the top/back, it will. A package can be dropped flat on concrete from a three feet height, and the neck break off! Most packages are dropped flat in shipment. The vioin can be broken to bits and no sign of damage on the outside of the box, without proper packing. My damage claims have been limited to one: a fork lift ran through...they paid immediately!! Most damage to my stuff has been when returned by a customer and our instructions not followed for packing. So, inertial hammer effect is the cause of most damage. Best regards, Al Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David Tseng Posted November 22, 1999 Report Share Posted November 22, 1999 In my opinion, most of the damage can be attributed to improper packing. If any of you wants to ship violins by courier in the future, I would suggest the following: (1) Use a strong carton. (2) The carton should be big enough so the space between the box and the violin case can be filled with foam chips or newspaper. (3)Line the interior of the violin case with foam to give extra cushion and to prevent the violin from bouncing inside the case. Shipping violins by UPS outside the U. S. is entirely at yopur own risk.(In Canada and some European countries) UPS doesn't have insurance to cover damage. You could buy insurance from other company, but the cost for a $1,000 violin is over $100. The cost of sending a violin plus insurance from coast to coast in the United States by UPS is less $15. This is dirt cheap. If you don't like UPS you could try parcel post, FedEx or any other courier. I found that UPS is the most dependable. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David Tseng Posted November 22, 1999 Report Share Posted November 22, 1999 That's a very bad PR. You could report the case to the head office. That man could be fired. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Al Stancel Posted November 22, 1999 Report Share Posted November 22, 1999 Hello David: Just a short comment on using foam in the case. People have shipped to me using foam to cushion the violin in the case. About 1 in 10 shipments are damaged. I think the reason is that foam doesn't prevent the inertial hammer effect. The violin, when carton is dropped, is well cushioned on the downward movement. Then, the compressed foam gives a huge re-bound to the other foam. When the violin stops its re-bound the damage occurs. I use non-compressable packing in the case...like folded or rolled paper towels. Cheers, Al Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ml Posted November 22, 1999 Report Share Posted November 22, 1999 Are you serious? Fifteen dollars? How do you get them to ship for $15? Shipping from Austin, Tx to Houston, Tx was going to cost me $15 plus insurance which was $10 per $1000. I suppose if I had good insurance to cover damage during shipping it would have cost less, but for standard UPS insurance, that's the going rate. I found this more expensive than my just driving to Houston to drop the instruments off... M. : In my opinion, most of the damage can be attributed to improper packing. If any of you wants to ship violins by courier in the future, I would suggest the following: (1) Use a strong carton. (2) The carton should be big enough so the space between the box and the violin case can be filled with foam chips or newspaper. (3)Line the interior of the violin case with foam to give extra cushion and to prevent the violin from bouncing inside the case. : Shipping violins by UPS outside the U. S. is entirely at yopur own risk.(In Canada and some European countries) UPS doesn't have insurance to cover damage. You could buy insurance from other company, but the cost for a $1,000 violin is over $100. The cost of sending a violin plus insurance from coast to coast in the United States by UPS is less $15. This is dirt cheap. If you don't like UPS you could try parcel post, FedEx or any other courier. I found that UPS is the most dependable. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve Perry Posted November 25, 1999 Report Share Posted November 25, 1999 : DOES ANY ONE HAVE ANY SUGGESTIONS ON GETTING UPS TO PAY FOR A BROKEN INSTRUMENT? UPS is subject to general jurisdiction pretty much everywhere because they have a major operation in all states. If you can demonstrate that the violin wasn't broken before (e.g., pictures) beyond a reasonable doubt, then sue them in your local small claims court for the damage, the shipping, and attorney's fees. You would probably want an attorney's help in setting up the claim and developing the evidence, but a local legal clinic or perhaps a musician lawyer could help. The crushed box helps lots. They didn't argue about my broken bows when I pointed out the tire tracks! If you're shipping to a cognizant buyer, then knock over the soundpost. Most cognizant buyers like to mess with the setup anyway! Steve Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dave Posted November 25, 1999 Report Share Posted November 25, 1999 I had an expierience w/ UPS- they broke a $1000.00 bow that was packed in a bow case and then in a box w/ 4" packing on all sides. It took 1 year and many phone calls. The inspector first said it was packed fine but after not hearing and no money for two months a phone call to UPS resulted in a comment of "it was packed improperly. To make a long story short I finnaly wrote the UPS headquarters and told them the story and also brought up the fact that they are their own insurance investigators and that I saw that as a conflict of interest and that I would ne reporting this case to the appropriate offices and would'nt you know I got a check in a week. Dave Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Freddi Posted November 28, 1999 Report Share Posted November 28, 1999 : So, they even stepped on it to assure that they get their money's worth!! Goodness, what a waste, and an insult for the owner. Maybe they did it with a grin too. ...I would've stepped on his HEAD !!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Roj Avon Posted November 29, 1999 Report Share Posted November 29, 1999 I worked briefly for a package carrier very similar to UPS and I would imagine that things are pretty similar at all of the package companies. Marking your package "Fragile" means nothing to the average spare truck loader/unloader. After your box is on the truck no one gives it a particularly close look until it arrives at the terminal. Its then thrown, slid, drop kicked, or jump shotted out of the truck and onto a conveyer belt and someone will look at the zip code and route it to another truck. Inside this truck are a couple of guys who are basically playing a game of 3-D Tetris with your package. Boxes are frequently coming in faster than they can thoughtfully deal with. Your box is then made part of a layer of boxes that builds towards the back of the truck trailer. Frequently the blelts get jammed and boxes are quickly picked up and thrown clear in order to keep the belt moving. Most packages can stand up to this process pretty well but a violin is not a particularly good candidate for this treatment. Most package services have weight limits but even a 70 lb. box tossed carelessly on top of a violin could be catastrophic. Unfortunately I don't have an answer for you as to the best way to ship or get your money back. Best just to document the condition of the violin as thoroughly as you can. Insure the shipping and then if possible have the reciever open the package in front of the delivery guy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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