Old Italian ebay violin

[pekar]

Hello,

I was wondering if I could get a second opion on this violin on Ebay:

old italian violin

My knowledge of violins is limited, but based on what I do know, I don't see any major flaws with this one. A grafted scroll -- if done properly -- I'm told is not a big deal. Any red flags here? Thank you.

[T_Rocca]

great price, just keep in mind the label is xeroxed

Graft is a common practice for a worn neck. it is normal.

[fiddlecollector]

Like the title " by Fratelli".

[pekar]

thanks for the responses. I'll keep in mind that the lable is likely xeroxed. Does the varnish wear pattern look natural? Some violins I see on ebay look to be revarnished.

[fiddlecollector]

Yes the varnish looks ok.

I dont necessarily think the label is zeroxed just an old copy label.

Also Fratelli means `brothers` in Italian .

[pekar]

thanks. that's interesting - i thought "fratelli" was a surname, but perhaps the person making the lable omitted the brothers' name.

[fiddlecollector]

Fiori is the surname, they were supposedly brothers (Antonio Andrea and Gaetano),They worked in Moderna in the early 19th century and according Henley prduced over 2000 instruments. What they looked like ,i dont know as ive never seen one, like alot of Henleys statements ,i wouldnt take his word that they made that many.Perhaps they were relabelled long ago thats why you dont see them(if that many exist). Also the date on the ebay label is far too early,they werent even born.

[pekar]

ah, thanks so much. it's making more sense now. I'll see what I can dig up online, knowing "Fiori" is the surname.

[Richf]

Lots of things to learn from this auction. First,the seller is very active in violins, so don't expect him to give anything away. Second, the practice of keeping bidder IDs private is always suspect -- how do you know he isn't putting in bids to make it look more popular? Third, that looks to me like a fake scroll graft -- look how the grain cuts across the graft line. And fourth, as fiddlecollector points out, the labeled date predates the supposed maker. (Using labels for less well known makers is common; it's hard to check on.) Looks like a nice, older German instrument. That squarish outline makes me think Klingenthal. Is that worm damage that I see on the upper treble rib section? That can really kill the value.

[fiddlecollector]

Considering the 2000 Instruments i can find one listing for a cello sold in 2001 in London at bonhams for 13000$.Wheres the other 1999????

[pekar]

very nice points. i do see how the grain crosses the graft line. perhaps faking a scroll graft would be a good way to make the instrument seem older than it is -- i've been told older instruments' necks were very often lengthened. despite questions of its authenticity, the instrument is for some reason appealing to me. But, as pointed out, the seller might be questionable here. Thanks for sharing your expertise.

[fiddlecollector]

I suppose its an ok looking violin especially for the price its at now.Grafting can be done at any time and often as you say to make it appear older than it is. Makers even today often do grafts as part of the copying process, ive did this before.

It looks like an oldish German violin and might sound reasonably well,old German violins often do but they are not usually very powerful volume wise.

[Kenmckay]

The scroll graft definately looks real to me. What looks like grain crossing the graft line is actually tool marks with pigment in it. Look at the bottom part of the graft, that is a sure sign of a wood joint

[fiddlecollector]

I think it probably is a `real ` graft, notice also the lack of flaming on the head compared to the neck.

[Ron MacDonald]

I also agree that it's a real graft. I was surprised at Richf's comment given the highly flamed neck and absolutely plain head.

[fiddlecollector]

Richf`s comments are fine, the pictures arent too clear and the backwards cut of the graft looks a bit confusing at first but it often happens if the pegbox walls are thin or the scroll has funny proportions. Also we might be wrong and Richf is right, theres plenty of maple that is only flamed for a certain length of the wood then fades out.

[Richf]

Thanks for the defense, Bob. But I just went back to look at those grain lines up close, and I now agree that it is a real graft. FYI, I found an example of a label by Fratelli Fiori in Jalovec. It is handwritten and looks nothing like this one -- even ignoring the great discrepancy in dates. I still like my Klingenthal attribution.

[nickia]

Quote:

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great price, just keep in mind the label is xeroxed

Graft is a common practice for a worn neck. it is normal.

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Xeroxed means photocopied right?

Thank you!

[bean_fidhleir]

Does anyone else see what looks like a post crack or two on the back?

(it's hard to tell without seeing the pegbox, but that 'graft' looks an awful lot like a scratch to me, too. Sorry to be a contrarian )

[fiddlecollector]

No, i cant see one, its very well hidden if there is.

The graft looks a bit odd because often when you do them and the top of the peg box is wider than the normal nut width,you get the graft line going backwards at the top as opposed to curling forward as is more usual.I think its a real graft.

[bean_fidhleir]

Quote:

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No, i cant see one, its very well hidden if there is.

The graft looks a bit odd because often when you do them and the top of the peg box is wider than the normal nut width,you get the graft line going backwards at the top as opposed to curling forward as is more usual.I think its a real graft.

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I have to agree on the crack--I was going to point out what I thought I saw, but now can't find it again. Annoying.

The reason the graft seems more like a scratch to me is that the wood on both sides appears to agree awfully well, and the line wobbles to a degree that seems more consistent with someone dragging a spike bumpitty-bump across hard and soft grain changes than with someone cutting through them with a razor saw.

It's a pity that we don't know who bought it--it would be nice to be able to ask them for details.

[pekar]

Yes, it is a pity we don't know who bought it. I was going to bid a max of $500 for it -- until the bidding pushed over $1000. I just didn't feel comfortable bidding higher on it when the other bidders identities were hidden.

[bean_fidhleir]

I know what you mean and don't blame you a bit. I bought a fiddle through a well-known auction house some time ago and am fairly sure I paid about $300-500 more than I should have. The final price was raised because of a last-minute bidder who seemed to go around making a single bid on many different instruments near the close of bidding for each one. His bids were never 'last-minute' bids and he never actually had the winning bid. Very annoying to think about.