old news, interesting read...

[hanxiao]

http://www.fritz-reuter.com/articles/start...yed-strings.htm

[Fellow]

Some people talk about violins like thoroughbred horses. If it can perform well then it is worth it. Yet, it does not like horses, you cannot "see" its performance. (the hard part). My friendly Chicago police officiers sometime ride horses on the street to keep order, I don't think they were riding thoroughbred horses. I find them (fast horses) in Arlington height (race track) only. Different kind of horses. Sorry, for too much local info. /yuen/

[Andrew Victor]

As you say, it is old news (copyright 2000). The unnamed Chicago dealer is Bein and Fushi.

It certainly does open up the inner workings of instrument dealing, or "unbridled" capitalism in any area; charge the highest price the market will bear.

Even though "bribery" is said to be illegal in the USA, ways have been found to "encourage" support of others (including political lobbyists), so we are little different than those countries considered corrupt because of bribery.

The selling and reselling that occured with Segelman's instruments was jst a way of making "payola."

When we ordinary mortals go to a dealer to buy or sell an instrumentit pays to remember what goes on. If we sell, chances are we will be offered half what the dealer will charge on a resale. If we buy, the starting price will probably be twice (or more) what it cost the dealer. None of this is illegal, or immoral, of course, it is the way buying and selling has always been done. Without it ocean exploration would never have started as a way of finding cheap items to transport and sell for profit. It's all part of the same thing, it just seems dirty (even illegal) when it is done with all the merchant's risks removed.

Andy

[guta]

The question of how much a dealer charges for an instrument is a ticklish one. It is easy to get angry about the high markups - however, let's remember that if dealers can't make a living, we'd have no dealers. Nowhere to go to look, browse, ask questions, and even find the occasional sleeper!

I can only speak for myself here, but nobody has ever held a gun to my head and forced me to buy a violin from a dealer. I am quite comfortable buying at auction too. The point is, if I am going to lay out good money for a violin or bow, I had better know what I'm doing, and that is my responsibility. In the end, I make the decision on whether the price is justified or not.

I would even say that sometimes a sky-high price is totally justified. Last year there was an article in the paper about the owner of the " Rotondo" Gagliano. The present owner does not seem to be super wealthy, but when he was given the opportunity to purchase possibly the finest and best preserved Gagliano in existance, he went for it and paid what he called a "Strad- like price". To me that means probably over $1million. Many would say that is a ridiculous price to pay for a Gagliano. The bottom line? He has the greatest Gagliano known, a beautiful, glorious instrument. The naysayers don''t have it. There is only one.

If I had been in his position, with the money ready and available, would I have done the same? I don't think my conservative nature would have allowed me to purchase it. That's why he has it and I don't.

All Best, Larry.

[hanxiao]

agree with andrew and larry on some areas. greed is the driving force of the human nature. we all would like to get as much as we can get away with if we are selling something. meanwhile, the market (buyer) decides the right price. obviously, violin houses are doing fine charging a high premium because to certain extent, their reputations are on the line, which almost serves as a warranty. on the other hand, high end violins are like art pieces. the best items almost always appreciate in price with time, and there is no ceiling.

ebay, however, is a great equalizer for the mass. not every item is going to be a steal, but there are steals to be had. i recently got several violins on ebay. in the violin houses in NY city, i would expect to pay 3-4 times more.

[fiddlecollector]

then there is also controversy over the sale of Sterns collection which is something along the line of the collection was sold to pay off his debts/death duties but his family are miffed because the value of Sterns New York apartment valued at $3 million was not taken into account by the executors.The family would have prefered to have kept the collection and used the proceeds of the sale of the apartment instead.

[Erika]

Two random thoughts:

1. If you own fine instruments, it's up to you to ensure that your estate is in order if you were to be hit by a truck tomorrow... the certificates are top-notch, your appraisals are up-to-date, the instruments have been seen by multiple experts, provisions are spelled out in the will for the sale of the instruments, yada, yada. That is simply one of the expenses of owning these things.

2. If you are purchasing a fine instrument, you always have the option of taking it to an third-party luthier you trust for an independent evaluation.

[Fellow]

If a museum director spent a millions dollars (not his money), to buy a rare fine instrument for the museum, it is just a normal business. If an ordinary folk, especially not very rich, spend say, $100K to buy a violin, unless job related, I don't see the point. How good (usefulness) a violin could be? How much better sound than $50K violins, $20K violins, ..etc. No one can compare them all. Most people start a budget, try a bunch, pick the best. /yuen/

[hanxiao]

agree with you on that one totally. in my opinion, to an average person (whatever that is defined), if you have to get insurance for it, it becomes a liability, no matter how much joy it brings. you always wonder where you are going to hide it. was that line on the wood near the soundpost there yesterday?

to those who have unlimited spending money, collection of the finest pieces is an obscession, an ego trip till you drop. maybe when we have that type of dough we will begin to understand.

for now, play your italian monday, german tuesday, chinese wednesday (got to get one) and so on. different strokes for different folks.

[hanxiao]

i will add that before that time comes, i will make sure on paper my violins are not mine anymore to avoid any potential pitfalls that apparently even mr stern cannot escape. of course, that course of action is warranted if one of my players has been a real strad in disguise. fat chance, lol.

[Fellow]

Don't forget "new cracks" can show up unexpectedly too.

[guta]

Hangxiao- I see your point. When it comes down to it, unless you are a soloist, nobody really needs more than one violin that sounds good, and that could be a no-name beater.

But from what I read, most of us keep searching for our own personal "Messiah". There's ego involved, that's a given. Humans have egos. But there's something more also. I believe it is the instinctive desire to be close to something which takes us into a more beautiful place . Something beyond sitting in traffic or going to the D.M.V.! Cheers, Larry.

[hanxiao]

good point. as an average joe, i never, i mean never stop dreaming of owning a strad. Guta have one!

for now, my american dream is on hold because i have to act sane by keeping the marriage together and kids fed.

"dad, why are we sleeping on the lawn all the time?"

"uh, i sold the house and bought a violin."

[guta]

Hangxiao - Small correction- I once had a Strad, which I needed to sell in 1979. It was a wonderful few years, and now I have nothing even close to it. i.e., no old Italian.

So, the dream continues.

Cheers, Larry.

[guta]

P.S. I would be fine with sleeping on the lawn. I have discussed it with my wife, but she seems strangely cool to the idea.

[Jeffrey Holmes]

Quote:

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Hangxiao- I see your point. When it comes down to it, unless you are a soloist, nobody really needs more than one violin that sounds good, and that could be a no-name beater.

But from what I read, most of us keep searching for our own personal "Messiah". There's ego involved, that's a given. Humans have egos. But there's something more also. I believe it is the instinctive desire to be close to something which takes us into a more beautiful place . Something beyond sitting in traffic or going to the D.M.V.! Cheers, Larry.

---

I agree Larry. It matters little if that object is a fiddle, a painting, a classic car, the family farm, Grandma's ring or a piece of furniture... It's a feeling I'd wish everyone at least a shot at...

As far as the article goes, this is old news and not the complete story. Things are settled at this point, I believe and the industry has already moved on to, and through, the next scandal (New Jersey Symphony purchase). Another day, another train wreck.

Seems to me we see these sorts of situations appear in many "charged" environments (where emotion meets money... and the emotion can love, longing, greed or jealousy and yield similar results).

[jbgilm]

Speaking of the New Jersey Symphony, my daughter's teacher plays violin for them. He plays a del gesu as a result of the purchase. He thinks the acquisition was a great thing for the symphony, that the instruments are wonderful, and that the symphony sounds better as a result.

Quote:

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I believe and the industry has already moved on to, and through, the next scandal (New Jersey Symphony purchase). Another day, another train wreck.

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[hanxiao]

you can't be serious! not that you once had a strad but that you had to sell it...in 79! man o man.

[guta]

Hanxiao - Totally serious I'm afraid. Raising two lively kids and putting them through college was the clincher. I keep telling them it will soon be time for them to support me, but the response has been tepid.

Jeffrey, excellent point about the search for beauty- it really doesn't have to be a violin. I know someone who finds it in 50+ year old greeting cards!

All Best, Larry.

[Jeffrey Holmes]

Quote:

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Speaking of the New Jersey Symphony, my daughter's teacher plays violin for them. He plays a del gesu as a result of the purchase. He thinks the acquisition was a great thing for the symphony, that the instruments are wonderful, and that the symphony sounds better as a result.

---

I'm sure the symphony does sound better... and I'm sure the players feel lucky to have the instruments. That's kind of my point... In reality, the symphony didn't get "the deal" they thought (or it was promoted that they thought) they were getting... and if the acquisition hadn't been promoted as a super deal, it might not have happened at all. Emotions meet money with a side of politics, and a tax write-off for desert.

[David_Gouthro]

It's interesting what you said about the Reuter article not being the whole story, though. In the editorial of this months Strad Something White, the attorney for the Seagleman estate, said that what was presented in the Strad, last month was it, wasn't the whole story either.

So it would seem that no one is particularly interested in telling the truth. Or atleast their version of the truth :-)

What is that saying.... life is so constructed that if you want to enjoy its pleasures you must also endure it's pains.

[miles]

>If an ordinary folk, especially not very rich, spend say, $100K to buy a violin, unless job related, I don't see the point. How good (usefulness) a violin could be?

It's the DESIRE we are chasing after.