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jimbo

Tite Bond Glue creep

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Tite Bond creep:

In reading some old postings,I saw more than once the reference to Tite bond and Tite Bond II glue "creep".

Assuming identical installations on identical instrument parts ,when does the creep occur? During construction and under clamp pressure or after the instrument is under tension and in use ? Have faith ! I still have a one pound container of granulated hide glue that is nearly full.Thanks in advance for the education .

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I'm not sure about the term "creep" but I do know that virtually every joint that I used Tite Bond on has failed. Heat and humidity of summer turns the "cured" stuff into a thick ooze which re-solidifes when the humidity levels come back down (50% or less). I paid a high price for this learning experience. Also, the glue was well within the expiration date stamped on the bottle.

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I've never noticed creep in Titebond I. Apparently happens alot in Titebond II. Titebond I is considered the best out of Titebond I II & III, at least by guitar builders.

However, like MANFIO said, I'd just stick with hot hide glue for violins. I found it alot easier to use than I thought it would be, I even used it on the purfling.

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Here are some shear strength numbers directly from the manufacturers:

polyurethane glue--3510 psi

Titebond I--------3600

Titebond II-------3750

Liquid Hide Glue--3590

5-min epoxy (system 3)--2845

I did not find anything on hot hide glue. For comparison, sugar maple wood has a shear strength parallel to the grain of 2330 psi and around 700 perpendicular to the grain.

The Glue strengths fall in the same ballpark and are stronger than the wood, itself. We all know that there are a lot of variables that can effect the strength of a glue joint (for instance, clamping too tight can starve the joint). A loose fit will result in too thick a glue joint, and adding water to the glue will lower the glue content.

Creep is not going to be a problem unless the joint is stressed close to the limit of the glue shear strength; then, creep will certainly take place. While you are at it, do not forget that wood creeps, also. We have all seen violins with backs and tops which have caved in.

As a builder and repairman, there is no good reason at this time to replace hot hide glue with any modern glues. However, I see modern violins in which Titebond-like glue is used to put the instruments together--I assume this is due to a need for increasing production (shorter clamp times).

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[Manfio, Matt]

I submit the following test that I did on Titebond II back in 2002. You will have to trust me, I do not work for the Franklin Glue Co. This test was done on my own to prove to me that creep does not happen. The two test samples are

still under pressure at this date, with no sign of any creep whatsosever. Please see my thread about Cello Neck Repair.

WHAT TYPE OF GLUE?

Throughout history there has always been a debate or discussion about which is the correct glue to use in making or repairing string instruments? It goes without saying that hot hide glue is the best for the assembly of string instruments. Hide glue not only has the strength required to hold a violin or a string bass together, but also has an attribute that allows parts to be removed, as repairs are needed. Due to the fact that hide glue has the ability to let go at will, has always indicated to me that it is more or less a temporary versus a permanent type of adhesive. I realize that with hide glue you have the ability to control strength through mix but you still have glue that is affected by moisture.

I feel that a crack or repair that is to be permanent should have glue that fits that requirement. My choice is Titebond II because it is strong, permanent and moisture proof. I know this will open a can of worms because some people feel that Titebond II creeps after a period time. I want to make it clear at this time that I do not work for the Franklin Glue Co. nor do I own stock in the company. I have been using Titebond II since it was introduced and have never had a failure or any indication of creep.

Being concerned about creep, I called Franklin International to find out how much and over what period of time this creep was evident. Franklin technical support had heard about creep but had no first hand information nor had done a study in regards to it. So I decided to do my own study on the subject of creep.

I decided to run two tests as described below, see Test Fixture No. 1

The Test Sample is composed of two pieces of hard maple .75”x1.5”x4” long, the glued area is 1.5”x1.5” and Titebond II was used. The test sample was made up and clamped on 4/30/02, after approximately 24 hours of cure time the sample was placed in Test Fixture No. 1 with the spring tension set at 30 lbs. I was not sure that creep would not be present so the tension was set low. On 5/31/02 the tension was increased to 40 lbs. due to the fact that there was no indication of creeping visible. On 7/17/02 the tension was increased to 45 lbs. As of the date of this article there has been zero slippage indicated, the dimension at “A” has remained exactly at 2.47”.

I am aware that this is not the most scientific test possible, but I feel that what was attempted does indicate that there is no slippage at all. For the scientific community we shall add the following test parameters. The room temperature varied between 55 to 74 degrees F., and the humidity was between 35 to 55 percent.

Now to move on to the second test, see Test Fixture No. 2

This time the Test Sample is an old ¾ Cello neck, which lost its peg box. The heel was mounted in a vise and a mallet blow was applied to create a fracture near the center of the neck. The fracture was first glued with Titebond II, and then a 3/8” slot by 4” long was routed in the center of the neck 2” above and below the fracture. Then a hard maple insert was fitted with Titebond II. After the maple insert was trimmed down the cello neck was mounted on to a piece of 2”x6” and the aluminum angles fitted. The spring and chain were then put in place and set to 25 lbs. tension on 5/25/02. On 6/27/02 the tension was increased to 35 lbs, still no detection of creep. On 7/12/02 the tension was moved up to 45 lbs. and has been there ever since, without any signs of creep or separation. Also note that no fingerboard was glued to the face of the neck. The fingerboard as a laminate would add a great deal of strength to the test, and that’s the reason for leaving it off. Also want to comment that the flat surface of the neck has less then .001” gap at the center point.

These two tests indicate that creeping is nonexistent. The two samples shall stay under tension as far as I’m concerned forever. I have repaired many instruments using the above system and have never had a failure. If ever or when the samples fail I shall be ready to make a report as to when it took place.

In conclusion I would like to add the following. We must remember that 400 years ago the instrument makers had only hide glue available to them. Today some feel, because of tradition, that hide glue is the one and only glue to be used on a string instrument. We should be thankful that today there are available may types of adhesives that all have a different function. I shall repeat that hide glue is very useful because it can be mixed in various strengths. Its possible to open an instrument that was assembled with hide glue, but don’t try that with epoxy. I still feel that a permanent type of glue should be used on crack repairs, grafts and restoration. I prefer Titebond II or III.

I'm sorry but I have not found a way to paste the pix of teat fixture #1 & #2.

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Al,

Your findings kind of back up my own experience with tite bond. What blows my mind is that one peson has absolutely no luck at all and another is blessed with joints of steel(figurativly speaking).

If the italian violin making fraternity had had access to a similiar type of glue...how many less cracks and separations would we have to repair today ? Just a rhetorical question ,as I am not nearly as traditional as some.

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Al&AL

I read Al Dzina's 2000 forum on tite bond and have used it where I wanted extra strength on my repairs and have never had a come back on any of them.I have never seen a date on any bottle of titebond but maybe I over looked it.

Glue two pieces of wood of your choice together and clamp the together for 24 hrs and try to break them apart.They wont break where the are glued together.I am not a purest either.

monroe

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My appologies folks. I thought the glue in question was the Titebond liquid hide glue, comes in a brown bottle with an expiration date. The Titebond I, II, etc is something else entirely.

Thank you Al D. for the informative post.

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Excellent and authoritative post. I'm just experimenting with Titebond at the moment so you are the right person to check in with.

In Home Depot, I can't find anything called Tite Bond I. They have these glues arranged on a shelf and right next to Titebond II and III they have bottles labeled simply 'Professional Titebond, Original Wood Glue' so that is what I am using.

Do I have the right one?

These posts give the impression that the bond is permanent and that curing takes place but I find that after 24 hours, if I'm not happy with a joint, I can just wet it and it comes apart.

It sets quite firmly after 4-5 minutes so, from my limited experience, it seems ideal.

Is Titebond II equally reversible?

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Glenn,

I am sitting here with a bottle of Titebond II in my hand and I don't think it is "reversible .The directions say it has excellent water resistance and ideal for exterior applications. It passes ANSI/HPVA type II water resistance standards.Resists mildew,heat, and solvents . Not for continuous submersion under water.Water cleanup when fresh and ideal for RF gluing systems. 30 minute clamp time and 24 hr cure time. Sounds kind of permanent to me. I can tell you it is tough stuff and the wood will break before the joint if you use any care whatso ever.

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Jimbo, The original Titebond I'm referring to has nothing on the label about it being resistant to water.

Also, the excess on the suface of the joint cleans up nicely with a damp sponge after it has dried so that would seem to be a major difference between the original and Titebond II.

I don't think I would want to use a product that was irreversible, that's why this one appeals.

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Hi: GlennYorkPa;

I think you are correct that Titebond I and "Professional Titebond, Original Wood Glue" are one and the same. Franklin Glue Co. indicates that II is moisture proof, and III is water proof. They also say that III is the strongest of their products. As you can see all of my tests were done with II, since III came out I have used nothing but. Not having ever tried what you call

"reversible", I can only assume that II would be reversibile and III is not. Thanks for your opening comments. I hope the above info. is helpful.

Al Dzina

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"I still feel that a permanent type of glue should be used on crack repairs, grafts and restoration. I prefer Titebond II or III."

Are you making the assumption that you will be the last person to do repairs on the instrument? Nothing is really "permanent" in the longer-range scheme of things. At some point in time the instrument may need further work and perhaps your Titebond repair may have to be redone. What then? What about cleaning the joint to remove the glue? What about repairs badly done by less skilled repair persons?

To assume that what we do as repair and restoration now will last indefinitely is more than a bit optimistic and perhaps a bit egocentric. I believe our role is to make good and sound repairs, with as little intervention as possible and in a way that what has been done can be undone if it needs to be. Hide glue has for centuries filled this role more than adequately, so why change to something that is unproven and "permanent." Just my thoughts on the matter.

Terry

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I agree Terry. I'm currently repairing an old fiddle that has 15 or so top cracks, some of which were previously repaired, but separated again. The fact that they were glued with hide glue made it easy for me to clean off the old glue and start the repair fresh.

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Guys,you are making both good points and "questionable points". On one hand you tell about re-repairing breaks already repaired by hide glue. Since it is a re-repair maybe hide glue weasn't up to the challenge.Earlier posts verify that titebond or similiar products are stronger than the wood and thereby would never need to be re-repaired.

I see two trains of thought that are beating their heads together.

1. I see the traditionalist who wants these old instruments to last "forever",even if they have to be regraduated,re-repaired ,patched.necks reset to accomadate newer and/or better strings bridges etc .As long as there is a single peice of the original wood left the "Old original " is still there. This is similiar to "Gramdpa's hatchet. The handle has been replaced twice and the blade replaced once but it is still Grandpa's hatchet.

2. Then I see the repairman who wants his repairs to last "forever" the first time.The neck WILL NOT be reset in a hundred years because the original instrument would be compromised but he tries to build it so well that it won't need changing.

How about a sensible compromise whereby the major parts( back,belly or whatever you choose to be major parts are assembled by good ol replaceable,reversible, crackable ,hide glue and the parts you really want to stay in one peice be assembled with newer,stronger unbreakable,irreversible .....The traditionalists can still tear and repair but the modern types can sleep well knowing the joints they glued will stay glued.

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Quote:

How about a sensible compromise whereby the major parts( back,belly or whatever you choose to be major parts are assembled by good ol replaceable,reversible, crackable ,hide glue and the parts you really want to stay in one peice be assembled with newer,stronger unbreakable,irreversible .....


I think that we all want glued parts to stay in place. The problem is that they often come loose, largely as a result of some trauma or adverse storage condition, etc. When they do, and hide glue has been used, they can be repaired and made right again.

A while back I repaired a cello scroll that had been previously broken and repaired. I came into my music room to find the cello "headless" and the scroll lying on the floor several feet away from the cello. When I examined the pieces under a magnifying glass, I found that it had been glued with some "newer glue" and had softened over time and just let go, rather violently. It took me several days using a dental pick and a lot of patience to remove the glue from the broken pieces. The glue that had been used was not only was unsuccessful in doing what it was supposed to do, but it also very nicely sealed the wood and would have made it impossible to re-glue, had I not cleaned it as I did. I reglued the broken scroll with hot, fresh, strong hide glue and it has held very nicely. I know that if it does come apart again, and it just may, I or someone else will spend only a few minutes cleaning out the old glue this time, before re-gluing it.

This is an example of the point in my previous post where I referred to repairs done badly with "permanent" glues. In an ideal world, all repairs would be done perfectly with no need to ever re-open or repair them. When repairs are done with less than good skills and "permanent" glues are used, there is a high probability that they cannot be reopened and done correctly. I have seen several cases where an otherwise useable instrument had to be trashed, because a previous repairer used glues that made it financilaly not worthwhile spending time to repair the instrument.

What would the state of fine instruments be today if the early Cremonese makers had these wonder glues? I dare say that we would have far fewer instruments that are in playing condition now after their many repairs and alterations.

Terry

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It would be intresting to know what glue had been used on the cello scroll repair ,just for the educational aspect of it. Usually as a joint softens or weakens to the point that a peice fell off or was expelled,there is no violence in the action but simply gravity taking over when the adhesive couldn't hold the glued peice any more.Maybe the joint (break) wasn't clean before repair.

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From the outside, the join in the cello scroll appeared to be well glued and for the most part it was difficult to see the join, prior to the joint flying apart. There were no dirt residues or the like in the join, as far as I could tell. The glue had a very hard and glassy appearance under my magnifier and chipped out in many, many small hard pieces. I keep my instruments at a very even relative humidity of about 55% and so for the time that I had the cello, it was not subject to any major changes in RH.

Terry

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I don't think I'd use titetbond for a neck graft. Eventually the neck will need to be replaced again and when it does the old joint will require chiselling out again---quite possibly beyond the previous joint surfaces.

With hide glue you only need to get close and then soak it a bit with cold water and then wash the remainder out with hot water to get back to the original joint surfaces.

As for repairing cracks.....I don't know what titebond will look like after 50, 60 70 years of different cleaners, polishes, body sweat, touch-ups, french-polishing and rosin have come in contact with it.

Is it going to turn black inside the crack like alot of other non hide glues do, and then require difficult cleaning and restoration?

As far as I know, hide glue will not be effected or absorb any of the above accept maybe sweat.

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Also, the statement that the "glue is stronger than the wood" might actually be bad. If the instrument gets a knock, isn't it better that the glue breaks and not the wood? I always thought that brittleness was a benefit of hide glue.

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This is for b sharp : I think we have come to where a "judgement call" would need to be made.You say the weakness and brittleness of hide glue is a plus as opposed to the strength and durability of modern glues. Up above we see Matt repairing a violin with 15 cracks in the top. I could hardly crack it more if I gently laid it on a goosedown pillow and stomped on it.

Now for a little basic theory. A circle or curve will oppose thrust or stress better than most geometric shapes and a globe is stronger yet. Test question . How many forms,shapes,or pieces of a violin aren't curved,semi curved,or arched ? Top to bottem ,side to side,front to back....virtually every peice of a violin is arched,bent,strerssed or formed to take advantage of this geometric design...either for strength ot tone quality. The individual peices are pretty fragile but glue them together and you have a completely different level of strength.

All I am saying is that stronger more dureable glue will keep an instrument stronger...longer.I think the early luthiers used the best they had. Should we do less? Maybe it is as simple as commissioning a chemist to develope a glue with the strength of modern glues with the reversibility of hide glue.If we can send a space ship to Mars,it really doesn't seem like such a big order by comparison.

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Jimbo, as far as I am cencerned, hide glue is what I want but I'm a little too lazy to set up a glue pot and melt the crystals and generally perform a kind of Japanese tea ceremony every time I need to fix a crack.

Being able to squeeze it out of a bottle, ready made and at room temperature, is extremely appealing. I'll settle for exactly the same physical properties of strength, reversibility etc without any 'improvements' just for the convenience factor alone.

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Makes sense to me, Glenn . I'm betting the same chemist could develope a formula to satisfy about anything we asked for.There would have to be a market for it and I'm wondering if Lutherie by itself would justify the developement. I have performed the Japanese tea ceremony also and it does get to be kind of a pain.

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Quote:

I have performed the Japanese tea ceremony also and it does get to be kind of a pain.


Just keep it in the fridge and than all you have to do is heat it for use.

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