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Skreechee

Cello broken neck

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Snapped at the bass - usual place. If I glue and then screw down into the neck joint under the fingerboard, will this hold? It is not an expensive cello - only a junker but I don't want problems later on.

Thank you for any advice.

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Glue and screw should hold just fine. Use glue that will be strong when dry. Yellow woodworker's glue should work well. Make sure to use a screw that won't rust. Stainless steel or brass are good choices. If you drill right through the fingerboard, you can plug the hole with the shaft of a cello peg. Glue it in place, let it dry, and then trim it off.

--Dick--

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Thank you for your help Dick. Is very strong hot animal glue OK? When I get the neck in place, the shards are not coming flush. Can I expect some movement when all dry or will the countersunk screw hold firm? I know you can use a double nutted screw and tighten from the button when needed but really I can see a mess happening there with the already bad edges of the crack.

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Skreechee;

NEVER,NEVER use metal fasteners of any kind. You must remember that metal expands at a different rate and will in time work loose. Use a good hard wood pin about 3/8" dia. Use Titebond lll glue it is very strong. In my 60 years of repairing instruments I have never seen a screw job that did not need to be redone. Metal fasteners will not work!!!

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Al Dzina;

In the "old days" I re-worked my share of dowel joints... I doubt if there is any "perfect" repair for this area of the neck (unless one is willing to spend real money to "do it right").

Many years ago, David Burgess and I did playing around with the type of repair being described on less expensive cellos. We found it seems that the most effective repair was accomplished by using a wood screw (the type that the threads end beore the head). In order for the repair to last, the hole must be drilled in steps (smaller on the lower side of the break so the threads seat, larger on the upper side of the break so that the joint is compressed when the screw is seated).

While you are correct in noting that wood and metal have vastly different rates of expansion and contraction, a dowel would have grain running opposed to the neck wood (and will have different rates of expansion and contaction due to orientation)... and no compression. I've seen joints repaired in this fashon "creep" with time.

I wouldn't suggest either repair on a more expensive cello, by the way.... but a neck graft or complicated locking joint can be rather expensive (probably more than the cello in question is worth).

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Thanks for your help. I have tried it anyway and it does work. I used the threaded screw as Jeffrey said and it is tight as I am going to get it but it does not look pretty. I think it is one of those times when grafting should have been done but the wood is not good anyway so even if I had of grafted , it would have failed sooner or later anyway. New neck maybe. It is an old mortis joint too so messy trying to get it flush inside. I hope it does hold or I may be eating pegbox when I come to string it up! it is for learning on and I suppose it taught me something. Do it properly next time!

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There was a good post on this some time back. Someone mentioned after drilling the hole to then saturate it with superglue, let it dry, and then tap it out for an even stronger fit when tightening the screw. I have used this way on several cheap school cellos since then and it works well. Finding a tap that long needs a little hunting around.

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The neck on this cheap upright bass was broken cleanly about 60 mm below the neck/fingerboard joint. On a decent bass I would glue the joint, remove the fingerboard, install a "lag screw" as described by Jeffry. I like to countersink the washer into the neck but leave the head above, and counterbore the back of the fingerboard to fit over the head. This maximizes the amount of wood being compressed.

Removing and replacing the fingerboard would exceed the value of the instrument in the attached photo so after gluing the break I drilled a 5/8 inch hole as close to the curve of the neck as is safe, on an angle, well down into the base of the neck. A number 2B drumstick (5/8" dia.) was cut so one piece ended up at the neck surface and was glued with a liberal amount of epoxy. The next piece of the drumstick was used to plug the hole in the fingerboard by cutting it just short of the fingerboard surface, gluing it in, then topping off the hole with epoxy dyed black.

No doubt this is a cheap repair (one hour) I think it hss taken more time to write about than to actually do. The alternatives were explained to the owner and were out of the question. The owner was informed "If it fails-THROW IT AWAY"

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I have had good results on a few broken cello necks using 5/8 " maple dowels.

"Violin Restoration" book has been my general guide (except for my use of epoxy which I consider preferable for a permanent joint repair).

I remove the F/B and, first glue the broken neck with System Three T88 epoxy (slow cure) and reglue the mortice joint with hot hide glue.

Drill a 5/8 " hole as angular and deep as possible and epoxy a 5/8" maple dowel in place to reinforce the break.

There have been no problems with the six cello necks I've repaired.

Jimbow

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Re: Cello broken neck

[Re: Dick Mattson, Jeffrey Holmes & Skreechee]

I want to go on record and state that using a metallic fastener of any kind is not an acceptable method of repair on the string family of instruments. Later I shall attempt to explain why and show the correct way to make the above mentioned type of repair.

First let me give you a brief bio in relation to string instrument making, restoration and appraising. I have been working as an independent repair shop for almost 60 years. My studies on violin making were done in Mittenwald, Germany. I also have a BS degree in Electrical Engineering, I realize that this is a non related field but the discipline is still very essential.

Jeffery, I wish to take issue with you and David Burgess (playing around) with different methods of repair being described on less expensive cellos. You indicate the use of a wood screw was the most effective method of repair. I think, possibly what you meant to say was that it was a cheap and fast type of repair. You mention the drilling of the screw hole is stepped to allow compression at the joint. This procedure indicates to me that you are relying on the screw to hold the two parts together. Any repair of this type should not need to depend on compression of any kind. I have a felling that you were using hide glue, so the compression from the screw is very important, because hide glue is a temporary type of adhesive. The screw can still work loose as will be shown below.

At this time I shall indicate how this type of repair should have been done. The area of the break is first glued with Titebond III and clamped (that’s all the compression required) until the glue has reached total strength usually twenty-four hours. At this point a 3/8” hole is drilled through the fingerboard (on less expensive instruments) and a maple dowel pin is inserted minus the thickness of the F/B, again using Titebond III glue. On an expensive instrument the F/B should be removed before drilling and installing the dowel pin. Compression is not required in order to maintain integrity at the break with this type of repair.

I’m glad that you agree that wood and metal have vastly different rates of expansion and contraction. Let me explain how vast the expansion coefficient really is. If we look at the coefficient number only it is not very easy to relate it to the problem at hand. If we look at it as a percentage factor instead it relates as follows:

Maple for a 3/8” dowel = .35% to .75%

VS

Iron for a 3/8” bolt = 5% to 10%

As can be seen from the above the expansion for maple is very small compared to iron. On a 3/8” wood dowel to a 3/8” iron bolt has an expansion 13 times greater than maple. I realize that you are not using a 3/8”wood screw but the factors involved would still be fairly close. Jeffrey, you must remember that the small expansion of a maple dowel installed in a maple neck is very minor indeed. You must also realize that in this configuration (wood on wood) both elements expand at the same rate regardless of grain orientation (which is very small), and remember that compression is not required or needed with this type of repair.

I have used this method of repair on very expensive and not so expensive instruments as well and monitored their condition for about 20 to 25 years with no ill affects at all, including total lack of creep. At the time these repairs were done I was not using Titebond III because it was not available yet. I just used Titebond I or II or whatever glue was readily at hand, without any failures at all. But I never used or use hide glue for permanent glue joints, likewise I always use permanent glue for center seams on front and backs of violins and do not have any creep problems at all.

Just keep in mind that a mixture of wood and metal you will have 13 times the amount of expansion during any temperature changes. Also do not forget as this expansion is taking place, the force of the string tension and the vibrations of the bowed strings are working to loosen the metallic fastener. And this is all taking place regardless of how much compression you put on the break with your screw. Now here is something to think about. If you broke something made of metal would you use a piece of wood to repair it? Just think about it.

Now Jeffrey I want to address the issue that you worked with Shar Fine Instruments for period of 17 years. I find it strange that Dick Mattson now works in the Shar Repair Shop. It almost, in a way, sounds like a conflict of interest of some sort. (Just a thought.) I could go on but I want to stay as close to political correctness as possible.

My last comment is for Skreechee. His last input was “that he used the threaded screw as Jeffrey indicated and it is as tight as I am going to get it but it does not look pretty. I think it is one of those times when grafting should have been done etc. etc.” Then he goes on “I hope it does hold or I may be eating pegbox when I come to string it up! It is for learning on and I suppose it taught me something. Do it properly next time.” Skreechee you are so right do it properly the next time. But, do not use hot or cold hide glue, use Titebond III on all permanent glue joints, and no screws.

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Greetings Al, I have a quick question for you: Are your expansion estimates for wood and metal based on temperature or moisture? I'm no engineer (not paper trained anyway) but the expansion due to temperature is only a small consideration here.

When a metal screw gets wet I would guess it stays the same size but when a block of dry wood gets wet it expands greatly.

The way I see it is the neck block is doing the expansion and contraction, the pin whether metal or wood is hindering its movement by refusing to expand and contract as much as the neck block. So if a bolt is installed in the neck block during a time when the humidity is high, it could end up being loose at a later time when the neck is at a low, unless the wood is compressed somewhat.

As far as the right glue to use in this situation, I'm leaning more toward epoxy so as to avoid introducing any moisture into the joint. I respect the need not to use it where disassembly may be necessary.

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Hi Picknbow;

The expansion numbers are based on temperature only. Temp. is by and large the greatest factor in "metal-wood" faliures. Moisture could be a factor, but most of the time we are only looking at low levels of humidity. I can only hope that most luthier shops have some control over the humidity problem. As far as your choice of epoxy to keep moisture out do not forget that epoxy has a different rate of expansion. I have no idea what that factor is, because I never us epoxy on that type of repair. The reason being that if another break happens in that area epoxy is hard or impossible to remove.

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"Temp. is by and large the greatest factor in "metal-wood" faliures. Moisture could be a factor, but most of the time we are only looking at low levels of humidity."

This statement seems nonsensical. I feel that "most of the time" we are looking at forever changing levels of humidity and relatively small changes in temperature. (unless you store your cello in your car or in your attic) Any other opinions out there?

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Quote:


First let me give you a brief bio in relation to string instrument making, restoration and appraising. I have been working as an independent repair shop for almost 60 years. My studies on violin making were done in Mittenwald, Germany. I also have a BS degree in Electrical Engineering, I realize that this is a non related field but the discipline is still very essential.

Jeffery, I wish to take issue with you and David Burgess (playing around) with different methods of repair being described on less expensive cellos. You indicate the use of a wood screw was the most effective method of repair. I think, possibly what you meant to say was that it was a cheap and fast type of repair. You mention the drilling of the screw hole is stepped to allow compression at the joint. This procedure indicates to me that you are relying on the screw to hold the two parts together. Any repair of this type should not need to depend on compression of any kind. I have a felling that you were using hide glue, so the compression from the screw is very important, because hide glue is a temporary type of adhesive. The screw can still work loose as will be shown below.

I have used this method of repair on very expensive and not so expensive instruments as well and monitored their condition for about 20 to 25 years with no ill affects at all, including total lack of creep. At the time these repairs were done I was not using Titebond III because it was not available yet. I just used Titebond I or II or whatever glue was readily at hand, without any failures at all. But I never used or use hide glue for permanent glue joints, likewise I always use permanent glue for center seams on front and backs of violins and do not have any creep problems at all.

Now Jeffrey I want to address the issue that you worked with Shar Fine Instruments for period of 17 years. I find it strange that Dick Mattson now works in the Shar Repair Shop. It almost, in a way, sounds like a conflict of interest of some sort. (Just a thought.) I could go on but I want to stay as close to political correctness as possible.


Al;

Frankly, I just let your post fly on when I first read it, as I am not, and was not (in my first post), trying to provoke a conflict.... but on second reading, I felt a response was appropriate.

I am familiar with Electrical engineering. My father had a Ph.D. in the subject. I almost went that way myself... His specialty was optics and shock tubes. In the 60s, I recall playing around with gas lasers. Made me feel like Buck Rogers.

I'm glad your repair system works for you. I wouldn't dream of trying to convince you to change your own methods just for me. :-) I believe I mentioned that I would not perform this repair on a more expensive cello... and have not repaired a neck in this manner (or with a dowel) since, as I personally wouldn't choose either method for a better instrument. I’m also happy to point out that you may indeed have more experience with the dowel repair method than I do, as it’s not a method I employ (nor have I used a screw since the time we "played around"). If you feel comfortable with it on better cellos, so be it. It is not terribly invasive in any case, so we can just call this a difference of opinion.

I believe temperature and humidity are usually related when dealing with expansion and contraction of wood. Before and during violin making school I worked with a conservator and saw first hand the long term effects of grain orientation (when it matters, and when it matters little). I think my point here is that it doesn't matter as much in the neck butt as it would in other situations, especially considering the object (quality and value) being repaired.

Pardon my confusion, but why would you "take issue" with a repair trial and the results? I am just sharing what was observed. As you have strongly stated that you would not mix wood and metal, I doubt it’s something you will, or have, tried (and have only observed other’s attempts)... so we are discussing the validity of your theory and my observation for a specific category of repair (cheap cellos), correct?

The cellos used were destined to be "scrapped”, so I don't believe any harm was done... and especially if the board is removed when the repair (either dowel or screw) is performed, it qualifies as “reversible”.

As a matter of fact, I think it’s worth pointing out that many of the cheaper instruments experimented with were constructed with materials I found less than optimal... maple that was pourous, overly flexible and had a propensity to fracture. That was part of the motivation to find a method involving some compression. A few of these instruments stopped by now and then while I was still at Shar. They seemed to be holding up quite well after 16 or 17 years.

While it's not something I'd elect to do in a new instrument, historically speaking, some metal fasteners have been used... most common was the nails used when setting baroque necks in place. Few of these "sets" still exist, however. One modern school of makers to employ a screw by design were the Deganis. A screw was appied through the block to secure the neck. Can't say I like resetting those necks much.... :-)

I was indeed the VP of the Fine Instrument division at Shar for many years. Before that, I worked in the repair and restoration shop as well as assisting Mr. Burgess with his new making. I know Dick Mattson well, but am capable of agreeing and disagreeing with him (as he is capable of the same with me).

Now, what "conflict of interest" are you referring to? What place does a comment like this have in a relatively civil exchange of ideas, technique, observation or theory? Do you believe I'm promoting Shar's shop policies as an independent? If I were to harshly judge this tactic, I’d say it’s like whispering a rumor to discredit someone (in order to make your own point) and then backing down involking “political correctness” so you can remain a “good guy”. If you believe there’s a conflict here, just come on out and define it.

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I find it troubling that my name shows up in the same paragraph as the words "conflict of interest."

For what it is worth, I've been at Shar doing a variety of different and interesting jobs for the past 17 years. That has been long enough for anybody who's gotten to know me in even the most superficial way to understand without any doubt that my primary concerns have always been altruistic--to help people and to share information with any and all. This is why I was asked to join the repair shop staff. This is why I periodically pop up on the Maestronet discussion boards. This is why I teach.

Things happen the way that they happen. Jeffrey and I met 17 years ago when I first came here and I was pleased to find somebody interested in many of the same things that fascinated me. But to be perfectly truthful with you, I wasn't thinking too much about the Maestronet discussion boards when I moved here. I get the feeling that I should have been much more aware of the future feelings of the discusison board community and not have come here in order for you to feel more comfortable, but that's the way it is in this life. Once in a place, it is kind of difficult to avoid getting to know and having fruitful discussions with people with whom one works and has worked. But rest assured that there is no conspiracy here. While Jeffrey and I do on occasion discuss fine points of estimating repair pricing, we do not compare notes on Maestronet postings and I am certainly not his puppet, mouthpiece, fair haired boy, shill, or what have you (a few suggestions and I'm sure that the list could indeed go on). To backhandedly suggest and imply as much under the cloak of feigned political correctness, sir, maligns my integrity.

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Hello Dick,

We appreciate your professional experience and comments which help us all learn even though our background and opinions may sometimes be different.

Exchange of information is what this forum is all about, for gosh sakes!

There is no excuse for critical, sarcastic and abrasive comments that we sometimes read on the board.

Responses with a different viewpoint need not be confrontational.

Surely we have lost many valuable active members and contributors because of this problem. We should critically preview our posts, and edit them as necessary, if they might be perceived as being inflamatory.

Please continue to contribute your expert advice.

If some persist in rudeness, they should be totally ignored!

JMHO

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Well, I wish I hadn't bothered posting now! Only joking.

To be honest, I really b*ggered up the neck. It is out of allignment slightly. I nearly went back to smoking I can tell you. I see the problems with tightening screws especially when the neck is as old and with as bad wood as this one has - it has knocked it out and my glue just was not strong enough. I must learn how to graft properly but I just have not had any practice, basically. I am very frustrated at the moment with my levels of skill and wish I could teleport one of you to me to give me some tips in situ as it is so hard to learn this way - with no real involvement of a 'teacher' - just picking bits up as I go and basically learning by my mistakes - which sometimes is a very hard way to learn.

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This is one reason we use hide glue for repairs--if you find that the repair was worse than the problem, you can reverse it, and try again, or, if someone ELSE decides to fix your "fix" they can reverse what you did, and try again.

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I have had a private e mail from somebody on here who thinks that I do not appreciate the members advice. I want to say that I do appreciate everyone who has tried to help me here and I really hope my frustration has not come across as being rude to the members who have taken the time to give their advices as I did not intend it to be at all. It is a very steep learning curve and I know I am tackling things that are beyond my skill levels and knowledge at the moment and I know I am rushing ahead too much. However, it can get a little confusing when there are so many different views on how to do things. I know there are many different ways to skin a rabbit but the end result is you want something that is right. Its just getting it right takes the skill and the years of experience and nobody can teach that. You don't wake up one morning and you are a luthier - although that would be nice!

btw I still don't know whether to use epoxy or hide glue...(dodging flying planes, knives and scrapers)

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Hi Skreechee;

If you used hide glue, you may want to take things apart, clean off the glue, and start over...

You may have better luck setting the job up with clamps (try "dry" clamping first... making sure you can repeatedly get the clamps on correctly, then apply the glue) and installing your reinforcement (screw, dowel or what have you) while the clamps are holding the repair area in alignment. Things may tend to stay where you put them if you approach the repair this way.

Good luck!

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[Re: Cello broken neck]

[Re: Jeffrey & Dick]

My intent was and is not to start a conflict. I’m sorry if you take the negative position in this matter. I may at times become very involved and emotional when I see that there are still repair shops out there repairing string instruments with screws. Now if an amateur is using screws this is forgivable because of lack of experience. But when an associate of a Fine Violin Repair Shop is using screws I become very upset.

I’m happy that you are glad that the dowel system works for me. But believe me it will work for you or anyone else as well. You are correct that temp. & humidity goes hand in hand when dealing with expansion and contraction of wood. Humidity is a very small factor even in wood, unless you are located in the Mississippi Valley Delta, then you call it “moisture”. It has no effect on metal that is why I did not address it in my studies. You are very incorrect in your assumption that I am not familiar with the mix of wood and metal. When I first got started in the repair of string instruments screws were indeed used. But after seeing failure after failure I looked into the reason and found out that screws or threaded fasteners of any type work loose after a period of time. That’s when dowel pins came to the fore. In the last 10 years we have saved all the failed screw jobs and some day hope to put them in frames. These are not screws that we have used; these were used by other repair people in the general area. I have not used metal fasteners in 58 years. As far as conflict of interest goes my comment was that it “looks like a conflict” because you and Dick both worked for Shar a Fine Instrument shop that would allow screws to be used on fine instruments, you must agree that the association speaks for itself.

Dick my only comment to you is that I’m sorry that you took my innuendo to heart. You indicate that your integrity was maligned by my comments, in essence you maligned your integrity by yourself when you told “skreechee” to use a screw to repair his cello.

In the last 58 years I have seen hundreds of screw jobs on string instruments. I would without any reservation estimate that more than 95% had failed in one way or another. I’m not saying that the dowel system is perfect, but since I have employed dowels I have seen less then 5% failures. But believe me they are a lot easier to rework. When you run across a job that was done by a bolt, and then by the addition of a screw next to the bolt it really becomes a task to first remove the bondo or epoxy and then back out the bolt and screw, then plug the holes with dowels, so that a new dowel can do the job right. If you have never had this experience you don’t what you are missing. I really do not wish it on anyone. I have seen a string bass neck that was repaired by 3 metallic fasteners, a bolt with a nut, a lag bolt and about a 3” wood screw. I can only assume that the butcher that did this job felt that if one screw did not hold you might as well add a few more. The three screws did not do the job. I removed the three screws plugged all holes with dowels, and then installed one ½” dowel, and have had no problems to date. This job was done about seven years ago, I have photos to verify this mess.

I may be on a one man mission to remove metallic fasteners from use on string instruments. It is clear to me that you would only use screws on cheap instruments. I refuse to use screws even on a cigar box fiddle or an orange crate cello. I have used the dowel system on cheap and very expensive instruments as well. If the job is done right you may not even tell how it was done. When I say done right that means removing the fingerboard on expensive instruments. I shall close hoping that along the way I may have picked up some help.

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Quote:


Humidity is a very small factor even in wood, unless you are located in the Mississippi Valley Delta, then you call it “moisture”.

As far as conflict of interest goes my comment was that it “looks like a conflict” because you and Dick both worked for Shar a Fine Instrument shop that would allow screws to be used on fine instruments, you must agree that the association speaks for itself.

In the last 58 years I have seen hundreds of screw jobs on string instruments. I would without any reservation estimate that more than 95% had failed in one way or another. I’m not saying that the dowel system is perfect, but since I have employed dowels I have seen less then 5% failures. But believe me they are a lot easier to rework. When you run across a job that was done by a bolt, and then by the addition of a screw next to the bolt it really becomes a task to first remove the bondo or epoxy and then back out the bolt and screw, then plug the holes with dowels, so that a new dowel can do the job right. If you have never had this experience you don’t what you are missing. I really do not wish it on anyone. I have seen a string bass neck that was repaired by 3 metallic fasteners, a bolt with a nut, a lag bolt and about a 3” wood screw. I can only assume that the butcher that did this job felt that if one screw did not hold you might as well add a few more. The three screws did not do the job. I removed the three screws plugged all holes with dowels, and then installed one ½” dowel, and have had no problems to date. This job was done about seven years ago, I have photos to verify this mess.

I may be on a one man mission to remove metallic fasteners from use on string instruments. It is clear to me that you would only use screws on cheap instruments. I refuse to use screws even on a cigar box fiddle or an orange crate cello. I have used the dowel system on cheap and very expensive instruments as well. If the job is done right you may not even tell how it was done. When I say done right that means removing the fingerboard on expensive instruments. I shall close hoping that along the way I may have picked up some help.


Dear Al;

Since I was out of the country when you wrote this, I hadn't seen it 'till now... so sorry for my late response.

I've quoted a few sections of your post above, as I wanted to reply directly to them.

I do believe humidity and movement of wood is a factor in the success or failure of many repairs. In the climate found here in Michigan, one can measure significant (mm or 2) differences in the width of cello plates during the dry vs. wet months... even in very old instruments. Varience in the neck projection from season to season can be significant as well.

I never suggested using a screw (or a dowel) in a "fine instrument". Skreechee stated the cello was a "junker". I think you made the jump to "fine" on your own.

I've already mentioned what I think of your inference of a conflict of interest. Believe what you wish.

I did not suggest Titebond. I much prefer hot glue... so I guess I disagree with both you and Mr. Mattson on this point.

As I mentioned before, I made a suggestion based on my experience with a specific application of a screw (under compression) for a specific application on a "junker". I cannot be, and am not, responsible for other's botched attempts at this repair, use of multiple bolts, bondo, epoxy, or superglue. Done in the way I suggested, the repair is easily reversible, although I never found that this was required. I doubt you've seen a cello that I had anything to do with repairing in this manner... and I don't think I've seen one that you have repaired. Also, I'm sure a butcher can botch a dowel repair just as well as any other type. In any event, you feel your method works well for you. I'm not on a mission here.

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