How to tell age if the finish is perfect?

[Richf]

On a violin that has seen lots of use, superficial details like the extent of wear on the finish, depressions under the bridge, size of the pegholes, etc. can give you a good feel for how old it is. (Let's assume we know nothing of the provenance or about different styles of makers.) Recently I bought a 3/4-size Markneukirchen from 1937 that was absolutely mint, including the original receipt and warranty. Except for the finest spider-webbing in the finish, there was no way to tell this wasn't a nice Chinese violin made yesterday. I once had an 1872 violin from the Asa White shop that was similarly mint -- no one, other than the experts, ever believed it was that old.

How long can violins that don't get knocked around or left in the sun or caked in rosin continue to look brand new? I have been drawing clues to age from the paper labels and the oxidization on the wood inside the back. Anything else you folks look for -- like the extent of crackling on the finish? (That doesn't always work for me; I have a maybe-18th century english violin w/ no crackling. Individual differences in undercoats and thickness seem to be more important than time in explaining deterioration -- for both oil and spirit finishes. For example, some too-thick oil finishes boil up quickly.)

[fiddlecollector]

Tough question but if its oil varnished it can smell of solvents and linseed oil/resins for a long time ,especially in warm weather.

[Richf]

You lost me, Bob. Are you saying you can discern a difference in smell with age? (Seems like a joke is called for at this point, but I can't think of one. )

[T_Rocca]

Its true, you can still smell the varnish, by rubbing it etc. and it is harder for oil varnish, because the smell tend to stay for a very long time The Color from the varnish will change, most likely darken over time( by,or the wood ages), and depends on the varnish, ti might give a better contrast of the wood it is on. But that really vary from case to case. I would suggest you to look from the chipped places where the wood exposed m or even inside the violin to determine how old. I personally will look at the rib's linning and blocks first, because they tend to age faster.

"How long can violins that don't get knocked around or left in the sun or caked in rosin continue to look brand new? I have been drawing clues to age from the paper labels and the oxidization on the wood inside the back."

It could be hundreds of years if you bought a violin today and decided to keep it in the storage for the rest of your life. It would mostl likey still be like new due to the lack of UV from Sunlights, and almost dirt free from the protective SKB shell cases.

[fiddlecollector]

Hi Rich, yes i can discern to an extent by smell, i`ve learned to differentiate between certain chemical treatments by smell which seems to linger for decades, i have an english violin which is 100 Year old this year and like new,you can still smell traces of oil/resins, but it also has some foistiness/mildew inside.Though this does show a little crackling.But its rather unique in that it never left the place of manufacture until i bought it 5 years ago.

Older instruments always have a distinctive smell which is unique and i wouldn`t buy one without this smell, or would be suspicious if it didn`t have the smell.

The problem with varnishes is that there are rarely two alike even from the same maker and even a slightly difference in the varnish content could decide whether or not the varnish will crackle in the future or chip off or stay as new. Most untouched fine oil varnishes will take on a dullish sheen after a few decades.

Basically there are too many variables to recognise the age with any certainty.

[fiddlecollector]

I also agree with T_Rocca that the instrument could remain in pristine condition for years if kept in good storage and there is no inherent problem in the varnish to begin with.Paper labels with oxidise to some extent but if it was keep in a closed case unopened for 100 years it would probably look as new as a page in an unopened book.

So long as the paper didn`t have an high acid content to start with of course.

[rudall]

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Paper labels with oxidise to some extent but if it was keep in a closed case unopened for 100 years it would probably look as new as a page in an unopened book.

So long as the paper didn`t have an high acid content to start with of course.

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But even if the paper didn't have a high acid content to start with, we can assume that the wood to which it is pasted has a high lignin content, which would affect the paper in pretty short order.

[lversola]

So it's possible for the inside wood of an older violin that has been lightly played, and that has been stored properly, COULD look pristine yet have an old-looking label?

[fiddlecollector]

Theres alot of factors involved as you mention,but most labels have a barrier of glue between the wood and the paper.Also the type of glue that is used to stick the label down.Has the wood had any inside treatment,etc.. etc... Theres loads of stuff to consider.Your possibly right in some cases.

I have seen new looking genuine labels in older violins,so it can happen.

[lversola]

Traditionally, what kind of glue did the old makers use to attach the label to the violin? Hide glue?

[Richf]

My family already thinks I'm a little strange, but when they see me smelling my violins tonight they will have additional confirmation. Bob, how would you suggest "rubbing" the finish to bring out the aroma without hurting it?

The further suggestion of checking out the ribs and blocks is interesting. When I was seeing mainly trade fiddles, I regularly looked at the ribs for evidence of band saw marks. How would the ribs and blocks age differently from the backs? From what I've seen of tops, they seem to hold that fresh-wood look for a long time, so I'm thinking that the exposure to the grit that settles on the backs may be more important than the oxidization from exposure to the air alone.

[fiddlecollector]

I don`t generally rub varnish as thats cheating and most varnishes can be made to smell through friction.

Be careful that your not confusing bandsaw marks with toothed plane marks which are often found inside all classes of instruments.

[miles]

>It could be hundreds of years if you bought a violin today >and decided to keep it in the storage for the rest of your >life. It would mostl likey still be like new due to the lack >of UV from Sunlights, and almost dirt free from the >protective SKB shell cases.

Hmm, I bought a new bow and left it in the French Bam case in the US a few years back. I had to go back to Germany to work and by less than a year later, some hair on the bow got chowed up by ??? (I paid $340.00 for it in year 2000 in downtown Chicago from a high class violin shop in the fine art building).

So what is going on with my case?

[GlennYorkPA]

Had there been any other old bows in the case at any time?

There is a critter (presumably with a latin name), that eats horsehair.

I've seen the occasional reference on MN about how to fumigate the case but I don't recall how to do it and I no longer keep my bows in ANY old violin case (and Lord knows, I have enough of them!).

[Richf]

Miles, in one of the MN threads that Glenn mentions, I discovered that the culprit is a little beetle that normally lives on your floor. If he gets in your case, he loves the horsehairs, usually eating it for maximum effect -- straight across, rather than down the hair. It only takes one, and if he's still chowing down, you can see it with you naked eye. It is no reflection on the quality of your bow or your case. Was the case left on the floor by any chance?

[MANFIO]

I saw the Messiah in Oxford. It looks like a new instrument.

[Richf]

If you did not already know what it was, Manfio, was there anything at all about it that would make you think it was 300 years old?

[pahdah_hound]

I thought I saw the Messiah once while listening to a Moody Blues album backwards at top volume in my dormroom some 30 years ago when I was in college. Turned out to be nothing.

[T_Rocca]

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If you did not already know what it was, Manfio, was there anything at all about it that would make you think it was 300 years old?

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perhaps the label.. haha

but it looks like a French or modern Chinese to me

I still think Vuillaume made it

or he finished it from " A kit in white" from Strad's left overs

[MANFIO]

I knew the Messiah previoulsy from a book about the Hill Collection in the Ashmoleum Museum.

[Ed Shillitoe]

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I thought I saw the Messiah once while listening to a Moody Blues album backwards at top volume in my dormroom some 30 years ago when I was in college. Turned out to be nothing.

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HA!!

[T_Rocca]

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I knew the Messiah previoulsy from a book about the Hill Collection in the Ashmoleum Museum.

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It is also featured in the book "Art of Violin Making" that I have, not my cup of tea. People might think it is modern Chinese if I play it =P