I don't get the whole get a bargain on ebay thing

[rcc]

So I have to confess I don't understand why anyone who isn't an expert at assessing violins would ever buy a violin from ebay and think they were getting a bargain.

<stepping onto soapbox>

Assuming that neither the buyer nor the seller are complete idiots, there are no bargains unless one party has a piece of important information that the other doesn't.

Given the number of bidders who now frequent ebay, the odds of that happening for normal merchandise have dropped to nearly zero. If the seller is willing to sell for too low a price, all it takes is two or three bidders who know the true value of that item to bid the item up to something close to that.

Last time I looked to buy something on ebay, I watched for a while and it looked to me like the sale prices were about what I'd expect for used merchandise with a risk premium added in -- that is, the less credible the seller or riskier the item, the greater the discount. There were a few sales that were higher than market. But it was actually a rather remarkable example of (mostly) rational pricing.

Maybe if you catch a seller on a slow week you can get a small savings. Or if you're an expert and you spot a truly good old violin (that's probably in pieces) -- this being something that your average ebay bidder can't do, you can do well.

But for everyone else, it's a relatively unregulated auction with lots and lots of buyers. And in that situation, if you're lucky, the price gets bid up to the fair market value -- retail value of the item if sold in a reputable store minus the risk premium. And if you're not lucky, you get an action where some of the bidders drive the price up to above market.

So like I said, I don't understand why anyone would shop on ebay and expect to get bargains.

<stepping off soapbox>

Personally, I use ebay when I want to find something that's kind of obscure and especially if I want something that's no longer manufactured. But I hardly expect to be getting a bargain because usually I'm not.

- Ray

[Skreechee]

Oh I don't know - some people have had good bargains off me and no I won't be telling you my ebay ID

But then I am selling at the low end priced violins. I do 'em up and they sound quite good for the price. I know what you mean about the higher end instruments though. Some right dodgy sellers too.

[priya]

Most violins on Ebay sell for alot less then a dealer would charge. Does that make them bargins? I don't know. But I do see alot of dealers buying off Ebay. I wonder why that is?

[guta]

The best buys that I have been able to make, within my budget, have been prime examples of known makers, purchased from reputable dealers and auction houses at fair market price. In the end it is about condition, authenticity and overall quality. I would rather buy one or two violins and bows per year and know with confidence that I have the best example of it's kind. Since I am not positioned to buy a yacht, I look for the best canoe available. I know that we have some fine, reputable and excellent Ebay sellers on MN, It's simply that I don't trust myself in this arena. All Best, Larry.

[brokenbow]

Back in the early days of ebay there were quite a few fiddles on the auction block and very very nice instruments could be picked up for $25 daily. Because of bulletin boards like this one, with people boasting of bargains (in their opinion) they have acquired, many people who have never even been to an auction are now shopping on ebay. These boasters should also share with us how many dogs they have acquired at a (substantial) lost. Today most instruments on ebay do sell for more than they are worth considering the repair costs. It is not hard to find examples of someone paying $150 for a $350 fiddle that has two open top cracks and a really bad neck angle, no bridge, no strings, and only two pegs present. Clearly, ebay is not what it use to be. People who know little are bargain hunting and throwing away money. Fraud compounds the problems. I suspect that highly knowledgeable people who have the time to wade through 50+ pages of listings occasionally pick up a deal but this is increasingly rare. I think it is a tragedy, the number of people who post on this bulletin board and elsewhere wanting an opinion on an ebay auction or an internet purchase of a violin. Buying a violin for personal use should not be a bargain hunt, rather an attempt to find the best instrument possible for the dollar. This is best (and only?) done by comparison of several if not dozen of instruments in the same room. GO TO A VIOLIN SHOP and spend time making A-B comparisons. You won't get a deal but you will be confident that you have an excellent instrument that meets your needs.

[Karla]

I made a purchase on EBAY that was a good deal to me as a player. I bought a violin on EBAY for 5 hundred, put another 150 into it for set up and had it appaised for 1500-4000 (depending on the violin shop).

I think if you know the seller and know that the seller knows what he is talking about, and if that seller gives you a refund policy that you can hardly loose on ebay as compared to a violin shop. I find that the violin shops grossly over price the violins in their stores to make up for overhead whereby ebay sellers can afford to sell for much closer to the real value of the instrument.

So while there may not be any "deals" with respect to the kind that you buy a 10K instrument for 100 dollars, I still think there are better buys to be had for those of us interested in getting a quality instrument for several hundred or even thousands less than a violin shop.

[brokenbow]

Let’s use Karla’s response to further illustrate why most folks should not try to acquire instruments from ebay. First, we have a testimonial from someone that she purchased an instrument for $500 plus $150 for repairs. The instrument is subsequently appraised for $1,400 to $4,000. So it must be a deal relative to what could be purchased from the cheating get-rich-quick scum in violin shops. First problem is that we do not know if Karla made any bad purchases before acquiring this instrument on ebay or whether she purchased other instruments that were returned as unsatisfactory. The cost of bad purchases (violins set aside that are unsatisfactory and cannot be returned) and the costs of return shipment ($25-$50) of each on-approval instruments must be added to the $650 purchase price. We do not know if that is the case or not.

Appraisals are typically made for twice the retail value THAT A VIOLIN SHOP can get for insurance purposes. So this $1,400 to $4,000 violin is realistically a $750 to $2000 violin IN A VIOLIN SHOP. An individual cannot get these prices because of the limitations with selling a single instrument out of ones house. Working through a violin shop requires paying a commission of between 15 and 50%. So the violin, appraised at $1,400, that can realistically be retailed for $750, will net the owner $630 or so if and when it sells.

Appraisals are almost meaningless to players because the value of the instrument is established not on tone but the structural integrity of the instrument and its pedigree. So a valuation of $4000 tells us little about what an instrument sounds like. Appraisers often do not even put bow to string. It is not uncommon to see a violin described by a dealer as “having excellent tone for this price range.”—a further indication of how appraisals are made.

The real test of claims such as Karla’s would be if great deals can be had by her with consistency—or is the good buy just luck and will be followed by bad purchases. I would be on ebay day and night if I thought I could buy $4000 violins for $650. There are exceptions to all generalizations (Sociology 101 class), and certainly people do occasionally find gems, either by chance or through training and experience. But for the most part, violins are selling for prices that are at or above their value once one factors in neck sets, pegs, crack repairs, strings, bridges, etc. One of the problems Karla will have in trying to purchase another bargain on ebay is that having boasted of her bargain on this public forum, several new people will be competing with her for that great deal—driving prices up even further.

I find it humorous that while traveling about a month ago I noticed an ad in the telephone book yellow pages put in by a violin shop with a slogan “We will repair your ebay purchase.”

Like all business sectors, violin shops vary in price and integrity. When I upgrade my instrument I will go to a Midwestern violin shop, probably in MI, that has 200 or so violins and compare and contrast a dozen instruments in my price range. I will take my current instrument to compare them with as a control for room acoustics. When I leave the store I will know that I have purchased an excellent SOUNDING instrument for the money, and that no repairs will be necessary, probably not even strings. I will offer the dealer 90 percent of the asking price and they will probably accept my offer. This is how a player should buy a violin. We are going to be in big trouble if (cheating get-rich-quick-scum) violin shops disappear and the only available source of instruments is ebay. I expect my clients to pay me well for my professional skills, and I do not hesitate to pay other talented people for their skills. Yes violin shops make money off us (horrors!!!!!) and so do ebay sellers.

[Michael Darnton]

I think there are definitely two separate things going on: people who just want any VSO can do fine on Ebay, however most better players are looking for something specific with regard to tone, playability and other aspects--that's why they go to a lot of shops and play a lot of violins before they choose one. For them, the pig-in-a-poke aspect of Ebay isn't tenable at all.

The thing to do is wait and see if, having learned how to play her violin and developed some standards and tastes in the matter, Karla's satisfied to get the next one via the random-draw-from-a-bag-of-scrap process.

[guta]

Recent quotes from Michael Darnton: "probably why you didn't get a response the first time"--- "You appear to be the fly for which the flypaper of salesmanship was designed", re Karla: " if, having learned how to play her violin, and developed some standards and tastes in the matter..." Many of your postings contain these kinds of remarks, which are sarcastic and hurtful to the people you direct them at. Why do you do this, and what are you so angry about? Do you feel that an apology might be in order?

[Michael Darnton]

Sorry to offend you. In this case, I do know that Karla is a beginning violin player, though, and because I know she's a good guitar player, with some nice guitars, I suspect she will eventually develop a more sophisticated taste for better violins. That doesn't strike me as particularly harsh.

If you've taken a personal aversion to me, and it looks like you have, based on your both-bores shotgun attack that seems as impolite to me as anything you've accused me of, you can mark your preferences to ignore me, and I suggest you do.

[guta]

I, along with many others, will be glad to oblige you, Michael.

[jackc]

And i, along many others, am learning too much form Michael's posts to ignore them. If Michael has strong opinions, it's because he knows enough to have them. I for one appreciate what he knows and the fact that he shares what he knows on this board.

But he doesn't need me to defend him.

[Richf]

I share Jack's appreciation of Michael's opinions, but have to confess that I find the delivery very entertaining, too. I wish I had started a collection of Darnton one-liners and other zingers when I first came to the board. Guta, they really can be pretty funny if you're in the right frame of mind.

[guta]

Maybe I'm missing something--- is this kind of a Don Rickles thing? Phoo--- there goes one of my stars. I'll cry tonight. Best to all, even Michael. Larry.

[guta]

It's like-Oh my G--! My star came back! It's a miracle! Seriously, I love you all. Bygones. Larry.

[Michael Darnton]

Star Wars. I wish they could just make them go away.

[guta]

Amen brother.

[maestramusica]

How do you even GET stars? Are they automatic like the title- that changes with the number of posts?

I suddenly realize I have 3- and I have no idea why?

[Michael Darnton]

Click on a name to see someone's profile. At the bottom of their profile you can give them candy, if they agree with you, or spank them if they don't. The biggest failing of the system (aside from the overall childishness of the concept) is that if you change your mind about someone later, too bad, you're stuck with your initial rating.

[Guy_Gallo]

Actually, I think the biggest failing of the star system is that there aren't negative numbers.

[Michael Darnton]

Well, for an interesting and more visible example of how the system works, go over to amazon.com and look at the reviews. Notice how the people who praise everything, no matter how bad it is, get positive reviews of their reviews, where the people who do an actual service by warning you about the defects of what you're looking at get almost universally trashed. People don't want the truth--they want a smiley face on everything, no matter how bad it is. That's just the way it works.

You can't just look at a couple of things to see this trend, by the way. Look at a whole bunch so you can weed out the people who really do deserve the negative reviews.

Personally, I find the whole thing horribly revealing about the dirty side of human nature. I think the Greeks called it "killing the messenger"????? The model still fits.

I see I'm piling up more ratings--probably negative. Thanks for proving my point, folks. :-) All I'll say is that with twice the number of ratings of almost anyone else here, and 20X most people, it's obvious that I've made people think, which is all I'm trying to do, so pile 'em on.

[FSviolin]

I just found this thread and I feel that I should reply because two of the sarcastic comments that Guta mentioned were directed at me.

"Probably why you didn't get a response the first time"

-Michael Darnton was entirely correct...The answer to my question was too broad to attract many replies. I should have asked something more specific. Before Mr. Darnton told me this, I hadn't known that I needed to be more specific and didn't know why no one answered. I was grateful that someone replied at all...

"You appear to be the fly for which the flypaper of salesmanship was designed."

-This comment was rather rude, but it really did not bother me as my self-esteem is quite high. I really didn't think there was much merit to the statement so I was unaffected. I don’t think I will be vulnerable to sales tactics because I will buy a violin based on how well I like the tone, not what the salesperson tells me… I may have been offended if I thought the statement more closely reflected reality. Mr. Darnton sent me a PM apologizing for his statement. I was not insulted and there was no harm done. But thank-you, Guta, for standing up for me.

Mr. Darnton has been a wonderful source of information and I am immensely grateful for his help. I have learned much from reading his posts. I believe that Guta took offense to certain statements that others did not because of inherent differences in personalities. What seems like nothing to me may be very hurtful to someone else.

As for the stars…I give everyone I rate a 5. When the system first came out, I was offended that I was only rated a 2. I’ve sense decided that the whole thing is pointless…

"Even if you're on the right track, you'll get run over if you just stand there."

Fs

[guta]

In my early collecting years I actually used to be that fly for which the paper was designed. Fortunately for me I was at that time an enthusiastic customer of Wurlitzer's in the Big Apple. I ended up with a few very nice violins and bows, which over the years I sold or traded. It would be nice to have them back, not only for their wonderful qualities, but they would be worth a not-so-small fortune. So, F.S.Violin, thank you for your kind words. I will continue to be an advocate for the unjustly downtrodden violin flies. All best, Larry.

[guta]

BTW, In looking back at my original post to Michael, it seems to me rather mild- nothing really to get upset about . I honestly don't see what all the uproar was about. I just call'em as I see 'em. No hard feelings. Best, Larry.

[Karla]

Guta... First let me say that what Michael said about me was not in the least bit offensive so you are not helping me at all in your defense of me. I have actually had the pleasure of meeting him at a GAL convention and so he is correct about me and the classical guitar. I have a world class classical guitar and very high standards for that instrument.

With respect to the violin, it is my intention to purchase an American Made violin at the handmade instrument show one day to upgrade my ebay purchase. I have no limit on the amount that I can spend and as such intend to buy based on my refined taste on the instrument. I think with the violin that one must spend some time really playing and getting a feel for their style before making such a purchase. So it was my plight early on in my studies to find a violin with a quality that would help me to step into a new handmade instrument from around here. Right now when an accomplished player is on my ebay purchase the sound of that instrument beats any of the ones in the room. It really is quite remarkable on many levels.

Now I could have gone into a violin shop and spent 3K or so for a similar instrument but it wasn't necesarry and I can guarantee that I could go out and get the same type of a deal again. I deal with Jesse on ebay and I have come to learn that when Jesse says a violin has a certain tonal quality that he is pretty close to being right on. He gives a money back offer and is easy to deal with. In the case of someone like me who is a beginner who needs something to play until they have developed finer tastes or different tastes (I may like a bit brighter sound in my next one for example) I say that ebay is a ideal place to shop.