Most/least important setup item?

[Regis]

Of the following basic setup points, which is most and least important. Which "MUST" be kept when factors like length or arch force you to make a choice (even small change)? Which is 1st to alter? Or, do you compromise all of them?

- String angle over bridge 159 degrees

- 329-330mm nut to bridge

- 55mm tailpiece to bridge

- 32mm bridge height

I've gleaned over a couple years reading here that the string angle is 'probable' most important(?).

Thanks,

Regis

[MANFIO]

Each one of them will have to be studied in relation to a given instrument. In the Guarneri book it seems to me that the bridges are a bit higher in the profile photos. The Heitz has a string afterlenght of 6.0 (or even more), if I'm not wrong.

And there are other elements such as string choice, tension, bridge cut, sound post and the interelation of all this factors "interpreted" in relation to a given instrument. Just my two cents.

[Michael Darnton]

I'd put the second one on the totally-not-important list, and the others about equal, with slight precendence to the string angle and afterlength. The general character of the bridge would come quite high on my list, but not the exact height as much as everything else about it, especially having the various thicknesses adjusted appropriately to the specific instrument.

[Oded Kishony]

I've seen every single 'rule' broken and yet the offending instrument sound wonderful.

In fact that is my only unbroken rule-if the instrument sounds great and the owner is happy with it: don't fix it if it aint broke.

Oded

[HongDa]

I think I need to start paying more attention to the string angle.

I always thought if the overstand of the neck above the top, and the fingerboard projection were standard then this angle would be correct---considering the saddle wasn't too high or too low.

Can someone explain why the subject of string angle seems to come up more often then fingerboard projection? Or are they really one and the same?

[Claire Curtis]

Interesting that you put vibrating string length in the "not important" category, Michael. I've been using it as a starting point (not to say that it's most important). My reasoning is that the string manufacturers optimise the strings for a particular vibrating length, and to use a different length means that you are starting off with an 'abnormality' to overcome. This, I would imagine, becomes more important with the more highly engineered strings. If you used gut strings, with all the irregularities they are normally prone to, optimum vibrating length might be more variable.

I don't really consider string angle itself, since if you have the appropriate appui (overstand) and neck angle to allow for a tall enough bridge, the string angle seems to automatically come out the right range. If the bridge is too short, I'll use the desired string angle to determine what the neck angle of a particular violin should be, but I'm looking more at the bridge than at the string angle. (But I do agree with you, Michael that exact bridge height is not as important as the character of the bridge). I've also been told (as a reason for not emphasizing string angle) that the range of downward force from different string angles is less than the the range of forces resulting in a change in string gauge.

There are so many other factors --placement of soundpost, cut of bridge, afterlength of string, weight of tailpiece, thickness of fingerboard - and they all act in concert (no pun intended). I don't know if you can say this one is important, and this one is unimportant. I find the best thing is to put everything within a normal range. If someone comes in looking for a sound adjustment, there is usually at least one thing outside that range.

This approach seems to work for me, but I'm always willing to learn a better way...

--Claire

[HongDa]

Claire, is there some easy way to determine what the string angle will end up being while in the process of doing a neck re-set? Or does it normally just end up correct if the overstand is also correct?

I guess this is harder to control when the overstand needs to be higher then normal due to a very high arching.

[Regis]

I appreciate the discussion. I do realize there is much more involved in optomizing a particular violin but, this list along with the sound post & strings are variables that we change without opening a glue joint.

Thanks to all and I'll keep reading and learning.

Regis

[Michael Darnton]

I have a gauge which projects the final string angle based off the top of the board when setting the neck. The reason string angle is more important than the other measurements is because often violin tops, especially in older instruments, aren't in a plane, and all the normal adjustments assume a plane.

For instance, do you take your 2mm off the front of the ribsets, or the back? If you take them off the top edge, you have to add 2mm to your insert to get the neck back in the right place. My gauge shows me that as I'm putting in the neck. Other things that can mess that up are arches different than the nominal 16mm, high or low saddles, and thick or thin boards.

As far as absolute bridge height, consider that other than the downward pressure issue, a higher bridge exerts more leverage on the top, but moves it less, and a lower one has the potential to do the opposite. All depending on the stiffness of the whole system. When I'm doing a setup, this is something I like to evaluate by seeing how the old setup works, and then decide from there what I want to do, rather than starting cold: that is, see how things sound and feel with the present setup, and make changes based on that.

[DelDuca]

Michael, could we see a photo of your neck angle setting device?

[Michael Darnton]

Rather than the photo, let me explain it. It's two strips of plexiglas, with a pivot bolt at the bridge position. One strip is, from the screw, the length of bridge to nut, plus a couple of inches. The other is bridge to saddle length, plus a couple of inches. I've scribed lines where they overlap (the "extra inches" are at the center, beyond the pivot, so they overlap each other)indicating the final string angle, which I did empirically, working from a violin with a known string angle, by laying the long part on the crest of the board, the short part on the saddle, and scribing a line where they overlap each other to indicate the relationship they'd have when the string angle is right. Make sense? Photo tomorrow, when I'm at my shop. . .

[Jacob]

That is diabolically clever...I'm going to make myself one - thanks!

[skiingfiddler]

Quote:

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Interesting that you put vibrating string length in the "not important" category, Michael. I've been using it as a starting point (not to say that it's most important).

--Claire

---

I would, as a player, agree that vibrating string length is an important factor, if not to optimize the fiddle's sound, then to optimize the fiddle for the player.

If the 329 -330 number given above is the measurement from the inside edge of the nut to the inside (frontside) edge of the top of the bridge (and not to the middle or back of the bridge), I find that range a bit long. I do notice a difference of a couple of mm in string length, from one fiddle to the next. For me, with hands on the small side, a fiddle with a vibrating string length (inside of nut to inside of bridge, where string first hits it) of 327 to 328 is the range I'm looking for, and 326 isn't out of the question, but 330 would be.

[Michael Darnton]

Traditionally, some shops consider the 130 neck/195 stop to be a sacred relationship, however most of the players I've dealt with (not all) can deal with changes in that quite well, and learn to compensate quickly, especially, as you note, if their hands are begging for something different.

I set the string length for the best tone, first, and then see if the player complains, but I don't adhere to any specific length. I don't see a reason to compromise tone if the player doens't even notice the difference in physical comfort. That's a minority position, I admit, though.

[Craig Tucker]

In fact, I've noticed that most violin players make the switch to viola within an hour or so, intuitively. Most (if physically able) can make the switch within fifteen minutes.

Unless they are not adults and the switch is physically difficult to make, and even then they will tend to reach for where they feel the notes will be... but the fact is that players will automatically shift to compensate for intonation differences in playing position of different violins, once they've learned to hear a scale in tune.

There is a phenomenon where, if the player has only played one violin ever, then they will harp and complain about ANY change from what they have come to know regarding the mechanical aspect of playing, string length, bridge height and curvature, string height above the fb, etc...

but the truth is that in order to be really competent, players should switch around violins as often as possible if only to learn to be flexible and learn to compensate for irregularities automatically.

On the same subject - Michael, what do you think is the easiest way to determine if the bridge is not set at the optimum tonal position to start with? Would it simply be a matter of; no matter what you do to the violin with the bridge where it is, the set-up doesn't sound optimal?

[Michael Darnton]

For instance, yes. Then see if you can find a better place. If you do, that's where it belongs. There's no way to predict without testing, and so it's discouraging work on those bridges with their feet in holes that don't allow moving them around.

[Michael Darnton]

Here's my neck angle gauge. It's a bit large, for visibility, so I'll link to it. Notice that there's a line scratched down the string path, and on the paper on the left, a degree scale for measuring in this sitaution, with no strings. If you flip the tail over 180 degrees, it's short enough to fit on the string afterlength, and etched over on the right you can see a scale (backwards, because I look at it from the other side) for measuring actual string angle off the string of a set up violin. It looked a lot nicer before I spilled acetone on it one day.

http://www.darntonviolins.com/images2/neck-angle.jpg

If your eyes are good, you can see that the angle on this violin will be 159, with strings.

[HongDa]

Thanks for sharing that with us Michael. I'll start working on mine this week.

[florea]

Are any of these measurements on my particular violin of concern?

- FB projection on bridge (center) to top plate - 28 mm

- Bridge height (center) to top plate 35 mm

- String angle over bridge - 157 degrees

- End button lateral misalignment to body centerline 1-2 mm

[Andres Sender]

The end button position is only really a concern if, in combination with the neck position, it leads the bridge to be out of place.

[Michael Darnton]

I just moved an endpin off center 1.5mm yesterday, because the neck was over to one side, but pointed at the bridge (centered on the fs). I moved the endpin over to the opposite side so that the strings would go in a straight line (so that the crooked neck now points at the endpin), rather than taking a dogleg at the bridge. It's not the same as a neckset, but it doesn't cost as much, either.

[Jacob]

To me the string angle sounds like a problem - if I've ever encountered such a string angle where the tone was optimal, I can't remember it.

A difference of 7mm between FBP and bridge height sounds a bit extreme - what are the distances between the edge of the fingerboard, and the G and e-string respectively? I also think that a FBP of 27mm is "safer". The bridge height of 35mm is a bit high.

[Oded Kishony]

Hi Michael,

Nice jig. I'm making a new top for an old cello at the moment and discovered that the neck is off center :-(

I set up a string (wrapped around the lowest peg) centered on the nut, the end of the fingerboard, and the bottom block, to try to align the whole thing. It worked ok but I needed to lay a long straightedge to be able to see whne the string was straight.

Do you have anything better for this job?

Oded

[Andres Sender]

Have any of you ever tried to 'correct' a too-narrow spacing between the upper holes (i.e. 35 mm) by unconventional bassbar placement or other tricks?

[Michael Darnton]

Oded--sounds like a job for a laser. I'm serious--it would help.

Andres, one way to handle this is to cross the bar right over the eye, and then cut away the part that blocks the eye, at an angle, so that most of the bar remains. This is quite common. Just imagine taking a round file and filing the eye space into the bottom of the bar, letting the cut run out about halfway up the height of the bar--sort of a conical-section cutout.