The exact function of the sound post.

[Richf]

I am almost positive it was in Poidras. I just looked in my copy of Vol. 2 and it's not there. Since you have every book, Michael, maybe you could thumb thru the Vol 1 sometime. Discussion of the experiment was either in the front or the back section.

[Jacob]

Hi Michael

Yes, I'm pretty sure it's a frequency thing - bowing the A-string on a violin with a soundpost in a bad spot makes me want to try and get the A-string "in tune with itself".

After having been an organist for 15 years, I took a job as organ teacher in Windhoek, Namibia in 1980. The climate and the remoteness meant that I simultaneously became the organ maintenance person for seven local church organs as well. I had to get some instruction in tuning to learn to pick up the "beat". Once I was able to do this, it had the unfortunate result that every lesson I subsequently taught consisted of 30 minutes organ tuning and 30 minutes teaching - the "beats" started to drive me crazy. I eventually gave up playing the organ altogether, because no organ can be perfectly in tune all the time - in fact, not for longer than about 30 minutes at a time.

[fiddlecollector]

I`ve also read that somewhere,are you sure its not in Heron Allen book? I don`t know for sure where i read it.

[Wolfjk]

Hi Richf,

------I recall reading in Poidras or some old book about an experiment with soundpost placement, where the soundpost was affixed to the top of violin, secured by a wire or string around the body. Can you envision that, standing on the outside of the top?-----

I have never heard of this experiment, however there is a definite reason for it to be right. This would crave the question: how does the soundpost work?

Cheers Wolfjk

[ken_barlow]

I'm fairly sure that this experiment is described/discussed in James Beament's "The Violin Explained".

[Oded Kishony]

>experiment with soundpost placement, where the soundpost was affixed to the top of violin, secured by a wire or string around the body. <

I can imagine that the post pressing against the top has a damping effect whether it's on the inside or outside, but with an internal post there is so much more going on that I cannot imagine the effect to be identical to that of a post being on the outside.

call me skeptical on this one

Oded

[ken_barlow]

Quote:

---

Hi Michael

Yes, I'm pretty sure it's a frequency thing - bowing the A-string on a violin with a soundpost in a bad spot makes me want to try and get the A-string "in tune with itself".

After having been an organist for 15 years, I took a job as organ teacher in Windhoek, Namibia in 1980. The climate and the remoteness meant that I simultaneously became the organ maintenance person for seven local church organs as well. I had to get some instruction in tuning to learn to pick up the "beat". Once I was able to do this, it had the unfortunate result that every lesson I subsequently taught consisted of 30 minutes organ tuning and 30 minutes teaching - the "beats" started to drive me crazy. I eventually gave up playing the organ altogether, because no organ can be perfectly in tune all the time - in fact, not for longer than about 30 minutes at a time.

---

Jacob, its clear to see how you get beats/dissonances in a church organ (I am all too familiar with this as I did a couple of years apprenticeship as an organ builder when I left school, before I decided to go to college and do something different). When you play an organ note you normally have more than one stop open or maybe you're playing a mixture stop on its own, so you have several pipes "trying" to play the same note and usually getting beat frequencies due to the pipes being slightly out of tune with one another. But I can't for the life of me see how a single string can be "out of tune with itself". Kind of seems like the sound of one hand clapping to me.

[Michael Darnton]

Quote:

---

I'm fairly sure that this experiment is described/discussed in James Beament's "The Violin Explained".

---

Beament being the new Bachman, that makes sense.

[ken_barlow]

Excuse my ignorance, Michael, but who/what is Bachman? Nothing to do with Bachman-Turner Overdrive I assume!

[Michael Darnton]

"But I can't for the life of me see how a single string can be "out of tune with itself". Kind of seems like the sound of one hand clapping to me. "

False strings *are* out of tune with themselves (different diameters along the length wanting to vibrate at different rates--any you can see them fighting when you pluck the string), and believe me, it doesn't sound like one hand clapping, but that's not even what I meant--I meant various parts of the violin are trying to naturally vibrate at slightly different rates.

[Michael Darnton]

Bachman was a non-maker who wrote a particularly book around 1900 that collected a whole bunch of silly and false ideas about violin making, like Beament's book, though Bachman has a much higher error rate. When someone says violins don't change from being played, I reach for the red pencil and start reading more carefully.

[Regis]

Michael,

Do you listen for a "split-second" or do you hear the resonance over a few seconds or ????

Regis

[Michael Darnton]

What I'm specifically talking about now keeps going for the duration of the note. The lack of resolution of the initial impact into a note is another thing I try do deal with, though, and it has the same cause: things not working together.

[ken_barlow]

Would you care to expand on what is silly/false in Beament's book? No axe to grind here, as I must admit I find the book rather pompous and "know-it-all" in a typically old-school Cambridge type of way....

[Michael Darnton]

I haven't read it in a while, so there's nothing on the top of my head. The thing that prompted me to get it and check it out was that he said violins don't change from being played, whis is like wearing a bright red hat that says "I don't have ears". Reading through the book I found a mix of reasonable stuff, and ridiculous. If he did make that soundpost comment, that would be another strike. I felt that I was reading a compendium of half-baked ideas from someone with not a whole lot of experience in the subject, but not ground-breaking acoustics. I remember thinking his wolf-note theory was out in space, but don't remember what it was.

I just looked to find particular examples, but I guess I must have shoved it back on the shelves to behind the other books somewhere, in the "I'll never need to read this again" hidden section.

In general, the whole violin acoustics area is a minefield, because the most of the people who do it don't have ears, only theory, and there are only a handful of people who've written anything worthwhile. Oliver Rodgers is at the top of my list, for instance.

[ken_barlow]

Quote:

---

"

False strings *are* out of tune with themselves (different diameters along the length wanting to vibrate at different rates--any you can see them fighting when you pluck the string),

---

I understand that. I just don't see how it has anything to do with soundpost position (Jacob's comment)

[Michael Darnton]

Imagine the string wanting to vibrate one way, and the violin trying to impose, backwards through the system from the way we usually think of it, a couple of other modes on it. For instance, once in a while you'll find a violin where if you pluck a string as the vibrations die the vibration of the body forces the string pitch upwards, as the vibration of the body overpowers the string. The position of the post can change some of those "alternate" motivations for the string.

[fiddlecollector]

Rich,

I just looked through Heron Allens book and it mentions the experiments made by Savart. One of these is to put the post on the outside by means of two posts coming up from the corner blocks and a crossbar between these. Is this the one you`re refering to or something along similar lines?

According to Savart the same results were obtained if the post was inside /outside or whatever!!

p160 in Heron-Allens book.

[DougP]

Michael, your explanation of the way you adjust the sound of a violin by holding it in your lap and plucking the strings was great. I have an old German Guarnari copy that sounds good, but is touchy to set up. Using your method, I was able in a few minutes to bring it up to the best sound it has produced for me. I still have a slight warble in the sound of the D string as the vibration dies down. The rest are clear and steady. Should I try further adjustments or look more closely at the string itself? Thank you for posting your method of working on setup.

[GlennYorkPA]

Richard, The enquiring mind of M. Savart caused him to carry out many experiments on the sound post back in the 19thC. Your experiment was one and he did another clamping the post inside but cutting a hole in the back so the posr touched only the belly.

The conclusion was that that the post is necessary to connect the back and front plates in a bowed string situation. Without it, the violin resonates like a guitar when plucked but is deadened in pizzicato when present.

It is all reported in Heron Allen p150 and should be standard reading for anyone claiming to speak authoritatively about soundposts.

[GlennYorkPA]

fiddlecollector - you beat me too it!

You must have a later edition of HA than me. I wonder what I am missing in those extra 10 pages!!

[John_Jesseph]

Are you referring to the book "The Violin-how to make it-- by a Master of the Instrument"?? I believe this is in that book...(my previous post seems to have not made it...)

It refers to the same experiments by Savart. Maybe I should reproduce the experiment and use it to optimize my soundpost location. Maybe not.

[Richf]

Yes, that's the experiment. If Savart is French, it would make sense that Poidras would know about it. But the account I read did not relay all the controlled experiments that Glenn mentions. Wish I had good enough ears to hear what Michael is talking about on the A string vibrations.

[Wolfjk]

Hi Ken Barlow,

I read somwhere that Prof James Beament died recently. He was honoured for his work on sonar in WW2. Althoug he did have some strange ideas, he also had a lot of knowledge about bowed string instrument. He was a double bass player and probably got a lot of help with violins and celli from Juliette Barker and Christopher Beament.

He knew what he was writing about!

Cheers Wolfjk

[ken_barlow]

Hi Wolfjk

I have no wish to cast any aspersions whatsoever on the life and work of Sir James, who was a highly erudite and wonderful man. I just find certain aspects of this particular book patronising, over-opinionated and dogmatic. But interesting in parts, nonetheless.