Spanish Violin?

[maestramusica]

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?Vie...me=STRK:MEWA:IT

It looks like a decent fiddle, but in looking for info on the "maker" I find he is listed as having been born several years after this fiddle is supposed to have been made. I also note that there is some other info on one of the labels, which is not being completely shown. Does Cellodoc have a good reputation?

I have an email in to the Spanish guitar dealer whose website had the Benedid biographical info. Will let you know if he has any opinions to offer.

http://www.azstarnet.com/public/commerce/z...eene/zcadiz.htm

[GlennYorkPA]

For me, the label in Spanish does not imply that Jose Benedid made the violin. 'Compuesto' means literally composed rather than made (fabricado or hecho). I therefore drew the conclusion that it was repaired in 1808.

I was very interested in it for my own collection until I noticed that cellodoc was the seller.

[maestramusica]

Yes, I agree that "hecho" or perhaps "construido" would be beter used to imply making, but I do know that it IS used in perhaps less linguistically "pure" regions. (4 years as a fluent Bi-lingual teacher) Upon reflection, it DOES seem more likely that a SPANISH (not Central American)maker would have been more linguistically correct.

So if we put that label as it is, next to the incompletely shown label with un-readable info, it does look like you could very well have surmised correctly. In modern-day Spanish, however, the repairman would be more likely to have written "reparaciones por______" or "Arreglado por_____"

I was drawn to check it out in the first place because of my interest in things of Spanish cultural heritage, and because I will probably be moving to Central or South America soon.

Thanks for your observations.

Norma "maestramusica" Fay

[violinguy1234]

The last i head was that cellodoc was a complete FAKE! Buyer please beware!

[GlennYorkPA]

Que tonto que soy. Por supuesto entiendes bien castellano con nombre de pantalla 'maestramusica'. Te diste cuenta de mi advertencia respecto al vendedor? Tiene muy mala reputacion.

So I won't be bidding but I still think it's an interesting instrument.

[violinguy1234]

Could you please write that in english, i'd love ot hear your comments. I don't speak spanish and these translators are awful. Thanks. I too agree it does seem quite intersting. And it does actually look as if it might have some age on it. Also, I'm not too familiar with spanish instruments, what are some usual charactaristics of them (wood, varnish, scroll etc.)? Thanks!

[maestramusica]

Sí, lo leí. Mil gracias por el aviso.

Glenn was responding to my reference to my also speaking and understanding Spanish. And reiterating what you said about the seller in question. I said, yes, I read it the first time, and thanked him for the warning.

No huge secrets. Just a little friendly chat in another language.

[violinguy1234]

awesome! Do you know anything of Spanish instruments, i've never seen one in person?

[GlennYorkPA]

I was just saying that I should have realised that she understood Spanish with a screen name of Maestramusica (music teacher in Spanish).

I also added a subtle warning concerning this seller; a topic I prefer not to engage in in English.

I know nothing of Spanish violin making (who does?) but, if it isn't a complete fake, this violin has very nice wood, 17th/early 18thC appearance and a very individual style. The ffs are curiously individual (observe the four wings - they seem to reflect diagonally).

The wear pattern on the back of the scroll tells a story but the fresh coat of shellac is unfortunate and given this seller's record of fakery, one must be dubious.

[maestramusica]

I was about to say no, but I think I do remember seeing a few in a museum in Antigua, Guatemala. Poorly cared for though. Pretty hurt looking they were. However, the Spanish guitars for Flamenco are known and preferred by many classical style players, and so it wouldn't have surprised me to see that a Spanish Guitar luthier had made a few fine violins as well.

I did find scores for string ensembles composed by the early Spanish priests in Antigua when it was the Spanish Capital of Guatemala. Some lovely chamber music of Baroque style.

[GlennYorkPA]

I've just noticed Henley's entry concerning Jose Benedict 1697-1744 so stylistically, this violin is correct.

Apparently his label does say 'Compuesto en Cadiz' so everything is right apart from the date.

Looking more carefully I think it was 1704 and the 7 has been changed to an 8 (Odd that it should have been made younger by a century).

I'm inclined to think it might be genuine.

[violinguy1234]

do you think that the scroll might have intentionally been grafted just for age purposes?

[violinguy1234]

I didnt see your latest message before i posted...that is a very intersting observation. It does seem to have some signs of true old age and you can't go wrong with Henley but I must say beware of cellodoc. I wouldent risk spending that. Me persionally, I'd rather by a rare violin book (Hamma, Hill etc.) It's too risky for me, but than agin that is just me. Also, that is an intersing observaation on the f holes. All in all if you look at the other auctions from him (guadaginini for over 1000000, scrampella etc.) I have troble seeing why this one would be real.

[maestramusica]

Hmm. Now I have to ask- did Benedict put Amati labels alongside his own in a fiddle he created to imitate an Amati?

YOu've kind of come 180º in 24 hours, Glenn. I agree that the violin LOOKS to be that old, but although I realize the "d" could be a combo of "ct" I don't see any extra little tails or crossed "t" to indicate such. And I did also wonder about the alteration of the date. It would be interesting to follow this fiddle- but impossible due to the secretive nature of Cellodoc's sale.

I do think I'm learning from you and the other knowledgeable persons on this site. Keep on teaching- I'm lapping it up!

Thanks, Norma

[GlennYorkPA]

Hi Norma, I haven't really altered my position relative to the violin, just relative to the label which is usually of seconday importance anyway.

My first post stated that I would happily own this violin and that was just from a first impression of the photos.

When I looked into it further (stimulated by this thread) I find that Jose Benedict has an entry in Henley and it is definitely Benedict, ending in ct. Looking again at the label, I can see that what appears to be a final 'd' is actually a ct. Furthermore the alteration to the century date is apparent.

Henley says that this maker was the leading Spanish maker of his time although is better known for his guitars.

If it weren't for the adverse publicity received by this seller, I might be bidding. Such a shame because even if it is a fake, it is a very good one.

[GlennYorkPA]

Norma,

You are really pushing me on this violin.

OK. I have a theory.

The seller makes no mention of the Amati label which is clearly visible through the bass f.

The Benedict label overlaps the Amati label therefore, we are supposed to believe that the violin is really an Amati restored by 'someone' in the early 19thC. This scenario is a lot more plausible than restoration in the early 18thC hence the alterations to the Benedict label (which is probably genuine).

This leave a huge gap in the real attribution of the violin which is probably neither by an Amati not Benedict but is still a very nice violin.

[maestramusica]

Hey- I didn't say a thing after your last post-

I don't mean to push you, I'm just trying to learn from you, so I won't be as ignorant as I have been in this area.

And I agree- it looks really nice in and of itself, and I have never seen one that had that sort of look that didn't sound great as well. I just can't afford to bid on it at this time since the price jumped from about $50 to $350, or I would try for it. I was hoping it might stay in the $200 range, since I'm almost unemployed at this time. Yes, it's clearly worth a good deal more, but I can't afford to pay that. So I was dreaming....

[bean_fidhleir]

Quote:

---

it is definitely Benedict, ending in ct. Looking again at the label, I can see that what appears to be a final 'd' is actually a ct.

---

I agree with you on the date alteration, Glenn, but I don't think I do on the -d/-ct question. When I look at how thin that 'crossbar' is compared to the ink laydown of the rest of the letter, and then compare it to the 't' in 'compuesto', I see it as something in the paper or (probably) dirt, but not a crossbar. Also, to read it as a -ct would mean the letters are badly jammed together, but the rest of the label is in a very nice, round, well-formed hand, which doesn't seem to match up.

[GlennYorkPA]

Push me! It's good for me.

This violin is getting under my skin. I wouldn't have thought so much about it if it hadn't been for your questions.

I'm afraid this is going to make quite a bit of money because even when you cut across the jiggery pokery with the labels and the reputation of the seller, the violin stands on it's own merits.

I expect it to make over $2000 but will watch with baited breath.

[GlennYorkPA]

I never would have detected a ct instead of d if I hadn't looked him up in Henley.

Henley lists him as Benedict (there is no Benidid) and repeats the Benectict name on his label.

When I went back to view the listing, I thought I could see the cross bar on the t even though it is not as developed as t in compuesto.

Guess what, I just paused to check google and lo and behold

" Benedid, Jose(19th century)

Spanish Luthier from Cadiz."

This need more research but is looking decidedly messy!

[bean_fidhleir]

What makes it even more interesting is that, as far as I can tell, that Amati label appears to have been printed by flatbed letterpress, a nice touch. Now if I could just determine whether the paper is laid or wove....

[maestramusica]

Glenn, the "Benedid" Google listing is what I was originally looking through, when I found a link to a Spanish Guitar dealer with bios of some of the famous makers over the years. That is my second link in the original posting.

notice, though that although José Benedid's father, Josef was active as a luthier when this fiddle is dated , José was not born until much later. So here is where the plot first thickened for me!

What a fun mystery! (Yes,I AM a mystery buff as well as a Spanish speaking musician.)

[fiddlecollector]

So much discussion about the label!

[maestramusica]

Heres the text regarding (father)Josef, and (son)José from the other website:

*****

Josef Sebastián Benedid Díaz (Cádiz, active 1760-1836)

Don Josef Benedid, a luthier from Cádiz, was born February 10, 1760. In 1791, he married Ana Diaz, and they had nine children, at least three of whom, José, Joaquín, and Mateo followed in their father's footsteps. Don Josef was one of the most important makers of the Cádiz school, and among the early users of fan bracing. He is also believed to have been the teacher of the elder Pages. He had a series of workshops: calle San Francisco 66; Plazuela del Paillero; Calle de la Portería; calle San Augustín 85; Campo de Capuchinos 10, and was living on calle Laurel when he died October 20, 1836.

José Benedid (Cádiz b. 1827 - d. Havana 1899)

José Benedid was born in Cádiz in 1828, the son of Don Josef Benedid (1760-1836). He was trained by his father, but moved to Cuba, where he continued building guitars much in the same style of those of his father's. He died in Cuba in 1899. The is a guitar of his in the Musée de la Musique in Paris which gives his Havana address as calle de la Obropia, no. 8. "

******

The fiddle in question is listed as being made in either 1706 or 1806, depending on which one is to believe.Both of these dates fall well before the birth of José.

[maestramusica]

Glenn, here's a link in Spanish- you and I can read, but not too many others probably:

http://www.tristeyazul.com/suena/confgf.htm

You probably already found this one though.