Preserving Stradivari's Legacy

[chronos]

As much as I hate to see fine violins end up behind glass in museums, preserving the integrity of these valuable instruments is a worthy goal. Whatever knowledge may be acquired from studying Stradivari's instruments would be lost if the instruments themselves were lost. For this reason, I wonder if it's a good idea to establish an institute dedicated to the preservation of these valuable instruments while also being charged with the responsibility to add to the sum of our knowledge about these instruments.

Some luthiers might object to the publishing of information learned from the study of these instruments, but the institute would give preferential treatment to those who are willing to publish at least some of their findings (simply because it's literally impossible to force them to reveal all of their findings). The violins would be handled by professional restorers while permitting amateur luthiers to observe and perhaps handle the instruments under the restorer's careful supervision.

Imagine people like Schleske having access to a bunch of different Strads and Guarneris. It's precisely that kind of information sharing that such an institute would promote.

Does it sound like a good idea? If only I could borrow several million dollars.

[MANFIO]

Perhaps it's not feaseble... We can't find even chalk casts of instruments, that would be really usefull.

[Claire Curtis]

I think most luthiers would welcome such a resource. I think a lot of the old secrecy about such things has been disappearing, as folks come to realize that it is skill and artistry, not some magical ingredient or factoid, that produces a fine instrument.

The problem with gathering useful information has been the necessity to be non-invasive. Casts are problematical; plaster produces a lot of heat as it sets, and various substitutes have other problems, not the least of which is solvent offgassing. So owners have been extremely reluctant to let such a potentially damaging procedure be done on their instruments. Generally, when we do have a cast, it was made during the course of a repair.

That's not to say that we can't get some very useful information. I'd love to see arching maps made using Michael's laser technique. Seems to me that with the appropriate computer software, you could make some very interesting diagrams (with accompanying CD?). Then there are the doctors who are willing to make CT-scans of instruments. It's hard (and expensive) to get time on machines like that, though.

Jeff Loen traveled all over to take thickness measurements of many fine violins with a Hacklinger gauge - one of the few techniques of getting useful information without having to open the instrument. Even so, it took a lot of convincing (and flashing his PhD credentials) before many museums would let him near the instruments. Jeff then used mapping software to produce a sort of topographic graduation diagram of each instrument.

He self-published this collection as:

Loen, J.S., 2003, Thickness graduation maps: Classic violins, violas, and cellos: published by Kenmore Violins, Kenmore, WA, 131 p. ISBN No. 0-9743165-0-4

Apparently an updated version is in the work, written by Jeff and Tom King, will to be published by the National Music Museum (according to the info at http://www.kenmoreviolins.com/publications.htm)

So there are two different approaches -- the monograph about one violin, with all the detailed information (outline, photos, construction details, archings, thicknesses, etc) published together, and the one-topic approach, where one aspect is explored across a couple of hundred instruments, but in which the information is not necessarily correlated with other information. (I think, for instance, that Jeff's graduation maps would be more interesting if tied to arching diagrams and outlines).

But you're right. I think it would be worthwhile to form an organization to raise the money to devote to gathering this information, and to help convince players that they should subject their instruments to this sort of examination. Perhaps the VSA might want to help sponsor such a group? (Jeffrey??)

[Craig Tucker]

"Some luthiers might object to the publishing of information learned from the study of these instruments, but the institute would give preferential treatment to those who are willing to publish at least some of their findings (simply because it's literally impossible to force them to reveal all of their findings). The violins would be handled by professional restorers while permitting amateur luthiers to observe and perhaps handle the instruments under the restorer's careful supervision."

Really, who cares?

It is interesting that these violins are viewed as a sort of Holy Relic, isn't it? I am trying to think of a parallel, but there really are none with the particulars of the violin - perhaps there is a close parallel with regard to the production of diamonds.

Not that there aren't many other objects that acquire an almost mystical quality, and a price tag to match - certain paintings, certain stamps or coins, various documents, etc. Regarding violins, their scarcity as far as being antiquities is real, but their monetary value may well be due mainly to the fact that monied people control the distribution and ownership of such objects - and not much more.

Diamonds have a scarcity that is in a large part created, as well as a vastly inflated monetary worth. Not that they aren't scarce compared to many other things that occur in nature, but the manufacturers of cut diamonds, and land holders where the diamonds are found, also help create and maintain the mythical qualities of their product by maintaining a strictly controlled access to the product, and a large continued advertising campaign regarding them and their “worth”.

.

Consumers seem to want to march right in step with the mythical aspect of the product, or the *scam* would never work Hence, my belief that they (diamonds) have much in common, at least marketing wise, with the remaining old Italian violins. Even though there is no arguing with their worth as a dwindling supply of antique objects.

.

An added illustration of how this phenomenon works with regard at least to diamonds, is the lengths to which the diamond producers (i.e. diamonds that are dug up from the ground) will go to promote the idea that "natural" diamonds have a much higher intrinsic value than diamonds that are created in the laboratory... (laboratory diamonds are virtually identical to "natural" diamonds these days - and sophisticated methods are now necessary in order to be able to distinguish between the two products, so, where does the reality of the situation stand with regard to their *actual* value compared to their artificially or intentionally created value? I consider the actual value is what someone is willing to pay for a particular product or object based on the perceived worth of the product.)

Fortunately, the art world is very often not strictly an area of doing what has already been done, but it is also a traditional area of rebellion against the status quo, and the place where an emergence of new ideas can take place.

There will not always be the interest there seems to be today, in observing what has been done - and the more difficult observing these instruments becomes, the less likely it is that present day makers will really even care what has been accomplished - though it would be nice to be able to obvserve these violins first hand, makers are more likely to simply move on and start to create their own objects to take the place of the established violins without much concern about how they stack up tone wise, looks wise or any wise. What use is it to fight a battle that one cannot win?

The healthiest and most reasonable, and in fact the only possible move for many violin makers today to make is to attempt to create the best possible violins that they can with the materials available, and not to become obsessed with what has been done in the past.

Even if someone makes a "discovery" regarding the violins of the past, so what? If the information was to be kept cloistered, which might well be the case, it would be the responsibility of present day makers to create a violin making technology to rival the quality of the violins of the past - make that information available - and then move on to improve on even that.

It doesn't really matter what information is or becomes available, the number of truly skilled top makers will always be small.

[Michael Darnton]

But Craig, you say you've never seen one, so how do you know that they aren't that special?

[Jeffrey Holmes]

Quote:

---

But you're right. I think it would be worthwhile to form an organization to raise the money to devote to gathering this information, and to help convince players that they should subject their instruments to this sort of examination. Perhaps the VSA might want to help sponsor such a group? (Jeffrey??)

---

Do I sense the presence a volunteer willing to present a proposal for an organized approach to such a study??

[Andres Sender]

I think something like this could be done simply with the instruments currently in museums. If a group of interested luthiers formed a body and set some standards and approached museums with a professional proposal with a credible position in terms of expertise, I think some would come on board at first and more would follow.

As for the casting issue, I'd love to hear data on how many great instruments have been damaged by a professionally executed casting. Although there are obvious reasons why such stories would not be spread around, I rather doubt it's happened much.

CT your skepticism about the value of these instruments seems really strange to me. Their value shows in so many ways, and yet it sounds like you actually subscribe to the idea that it's just mass hysteria after all.

[bean_fidhleir]

If the heat of setting plaster is a problem, why not use slaked plaster, or perhaps the more jelly-like alginates, or even liquid latex? (I ask purely out of interest--I'm sure there must be some reason why such media aren't used, but I can't think of what it might be)

[Andres Sender]

I believe the state of the art for study casts is certain types of room-temperature vulcanizing mold-making compounds.

[MANFIO]

I think that there is technology good enough to "read" the instrument and recreate the cast without causing any damage.

[fiddlecollector]

I think that different types of silicons are used (which do produce some heat but the release chemical can also be a source of problems), the plaster is generally just used for making casts of a arching for repair work or for positive casts of the silcon one.

[Craig Tucker]

"But Craig, you say you've never seen one, so how do you know that they aren't that special?"

"CT your skepticism about the value of these instruments seems really strange to me. Their value shows in so many ways, and yet it sounds like you actually subscribe to the idea that it's just mass hysteria after all."

I will admit to being in a cynical mood this morning...

Sometimes I find myself on both sides of the same issue. I really don't have much of a doubt about the superiority of Cremonese instruments.

The degree to which some makers worship the past can be debilitating, especially in light of modern working techniques, refusing electric tools or materials that weren't available in the fifteenth and sixteenth century, etc. - regardless of the obvious fact that such maneuvers don't necessarily result in superior violins.

Still, perhaps I went a tad overboard with my post.

I'm still waiting for some innovative maker to supplant the violins of the past. It may never happen, but I think that the chances are at least as good for that to happen as it is for whatever working technique that was lost to resurface...

And no, I'm not up to discussing what, if anything, was lost.

Perhaps tomorrow we can discuss that. (again, <g>)

In all fairness, I'll cry uncle on this point. My true feelings are somewhere between awe and disappointment regarding those instruments that I will never be able to observe closely first hand.

[Andres Sender]

CT never say never. :-) Stuff happens when you try.

[fiddlecollector]

Hi Craig, why don`t you make a little trip down to Robertsons in Albuquerque they have 3 Strads in at the moment i think and 2 Guadagnini`s. I`m sure they`ll let you look at them .

[Claire Curtis]

Quote:

---

Do I sense the presence a volunteer willing to present a proposal for an organized approach to such a study??

---

Possibly, especially if Andres (who sounded receptive) and others reading this would care to brainstorm some ideas. What does the VSA want in a proposal?

Also: The casts made for study are usually some plastic compound, I believe, and as mentioned, it's not necessary to use high-heating plaster. And I don't think anyone has had an instrument damaged by professionally made casts. It's just that I think there is a perception that harm could result, and that prevents owners from being willing to subject their instrument to the procedure. An information campaign could be set up to address that.

-Claire

[Jeffrey Holmes]

Quote:

---

What does the VSA want in a proposal?

---

I would think the usual stuff; Goals, time frame, method, budget, planned method of reporting the results, etc.

[Alan_Coggins]

Hi Claire,

I gave a small talk on silastic casting at our conference a few years ago (though I am in no way very knowledgable on the subject). The transcript is here: moulds

You can contact me directly if you want any more information, but you really should talk to someone like Gregg Alf or Hieronymus Koestler who do it a lot. Hieronymus said that he had never had any problems with it damaging instruments at all, but you need to choose your materials carefully. There is a link on the page above to a second page that has details of the product that he uses.

[Michael Darnton]

Any restorer who does a lot of this type of thing, too, and some have written articles about how it's done. It's no difficult nor dangerous IF you know what you're doing, even with plaster, but it really scares customers. The bump to get over isn't the technology, but the fear of the owners.

[Kevin Miller]

Gregg Alf also has an article on his web site about casting violins with silicone:

http://www.alfstudios.com/news/casting.html