Chinese violins

[Auelfan]

I found this discussion board subsequent to being involved in one of the Zhang Shu Mei auctions last night. We didn’t get the fiddle, and having spent the last several hours reading everyone’s opinions, I’m sorry I didn’t go higher, and here’s why:

About eight or nine years ago, we bought an instrument from a dealer in Cincinatti. I’m not a musician, I’m a visual artist, so I was dependent on the dealers and my son’s teacher to guide me. My son was ready for a good student instrument. He was eleven or twelve at the time, and had been playing for about six years. We took home three violins from this dealer, two from another in town, and we also had three from Peter Zaret. One of Zaret’s was 19th century French, and was one of the top contenders.

In the end my son chose, with help, one of the first dealer’s instruments. This violin is numbered and signed with a French name from what we were led to believe (or maybe assumed) was an Amercian workshop. The fiddle has a big, rich sound, warm in the lower registers. If it has a flaw, it is that it is a trifle bright on the high strings, but it also has that magical ability to sound delicate in a small room (like in the living room while I am trying to cook dinner) and HUGE in a hall. The instrument shares many voice qualities with a Wiebe with which I am very familiar. It is a beautiful violin with, among other features, a one-piece back. It is dated 1993.

My son’s teacher preferred the French fiddle to the one he wanted, and the one he bought was her second choice. She never failed to remind me of that, though because he loved it I know he practiced more. It seemed a good trade-off at the time, and I still believe that. Getting to the point…

A luthier with whom we are friends has worked on this fiddle a couple of times, cutting a bridge, adjusting the sound-post, planing the finger-board, etc. It happens that this maker is on the Amati list with Zhang Shu Mei. It is his belief that the instrument we have is actually Chinese. You can imagine how much stronger was the prejudice against Chinese violins eight or nine years ago. However, without telling him what we had paid for the instrument, he gave a rough appraisal of its worth the last time we saw him. “I think if you got this for $6,000 you got a GREAT deal.” We paid about half that, and the deal involved a decent bow and case.

If this is a trend for Chinese fiddles, my amateurish advice would be to snatch up Zhang Shu Mei’s instrument as fast as you can get them. Not only do I feel that my son practiced more because he loved his “Chinese” violin, it has a beautiful sound, far better than I think you would normally expect from a student instrument, even a good one. And further, it helped him win a full ride at a university with a good undergrad music program. In college, he has found that his old $3,000 fiddle does him just as proud as it did when he was in the sixth grade.

Our Amati Foundation friend will make my son’s next violin, and we will probably pay the going rate for this work which, last I checked, was around $20,000, but this fiddle will do admirably as a back-up instrument for a professional musician. Am I provoked that the dealer didn’t make its origins clear? Not a chance; I wouldn’t have bought it, and THEN what might have happened? I would buy another violin from him in a minute. My advice: buy Chinese.

Auelfan

[GlennYorkPA]

We have had many discussions on this forum (often heated) regarding Chinese violins in general and ZSM in particular.

I am on record as supporting the quality obtained by emerging Chinese craftsmen and the exceptional value for money.

I assume there is a typo in your post because the top level ZSM violins being offered on eBay are around $2,000 not $20,000.

There is, however, a certain lack of clarity regarding violin makers in China.

I have business interests in China (nothing to do with music or violins) and so have the opportunity to travel there from time to time.

I have to say that informed Chinese sources, very close to the violin scene in China and the West, have never heard of ZSM and doubt that he exists in the form we have come to expect. That is not to detract from the quality of violins being offered under this name.

I myself have a workshop Zhang purchased on eBay out of curiosity. For $350 I received a very attractive violin, bow and case and the playing quality far exceed what one could obtain retail for this price.

I have to believe that the ones being offered by the Hong Kong distributor for $2,300 are sensational (and at this level, they come with a certificate). They certainly appear to be Beijing school.

There are basically three 'schools' of violin making in China and they are located in Beijing, Shanghai and Guangzhou.

The best violin maker in Beijing is Zheng Qian, who learned violin making in Cremona in 1980s and he has even won a gold medal in violin making competition in Cremona.

The best maker of the Guangzhou school is Scott Cao, whose ad often appears in String and Strad magazines. Another good maker is Kot Shu Shen who has won 7 gold medal in various international violin and bow making comeptitions. Both now live in the US.

So it isn't as though China is sealed and the makers unaware of good violin making techniques. Some are very aware but they just haven't yet developed the interenational reputations that allow them to command high prices, but that will surely change.

[Auelfan]

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We have had many discussions on this forum (often heated) regarding Chinese violins in general and ZSM in particular.

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Yes, I have read all of the posts from the last three months with his name in them this afternoon and evening. This is why I felt inclined to post, to offer our own experience with a Chinese violin as a comparison.

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I assume there is a typo in your post because the top level ZSM violins being offered on eBay are around $2,000 not $20,000.

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I must not have been clear. "Our Amati Foundation friend" refers to our personal friend and maker who is getting $15,000 to $25,000 for his instruments, not ZSM. Though I suspect if ZSM's (or the ZSM workshop, or the entity ZSM's) sound as wonderfully as I'm hearing, they might get there in time.

Auelfan

[guta]

Let's hope that the fine Chinese makers decide soon to sign their instruments and let us know who they actually are.If they fail to do this,interest in Chinese violins will never rise above the current interest level in no-name Marneukirchens. Wouldn't it be nice to know who made those, also. If they are from a workshop, fine, just give us a name, location and date.

[Syne7]

I don't think the makers will feel too free to reveal themselves until we make an enviornment that gives them a chance.

I took the Bird's Eye ZSM violin that I got on E-Bay to my local shop yesterday. As it was not set up and needed the strings, bridge and tail piece set up. Though the luthier was not in, the front desk person who's a well known local musician, could not hide her disgust. She recovered after a bit and said things like, "the wood is very pretty". Often they pick for aestics and not tone. Then started coming around to, well it might be okay.

It was a good lesson in how things work.

[Regis]

I've had a chance to try several Chinese violins($1500 range) of the same make & model and found no consistancy. Although they 'look' very good and exactly the same, as far as tone-wise, they sound totally different. All set-up the same.

Does this hold true on the ZSM's also?

[Fellow]

Hi All'

Don't forget the fact there are more Chinese student and/or professional violinists in China than the same in USA. The demand for good instruments is big factor in this driving force. (Local market factor) /yuen/

[GlennYorkPA]

We would all like to see provenance labels in all violins (including Chinese) but historically, the business is dominated by the ditributors.

It is not in the distributor's interest to have the maker's label in the instrument because he is afraid that buyers will go straight to the maker and leave him out of the equation.

I'm sure all makers would like to see their label inside their work but they are prevented from doing so.

Strad seemed to make most of his violins to commission and sold directly to his buyers so it was OK to include his label. The Markneukirchen makers all made for dealers who distributed into the retail market, hence no names.

The parallel with modern Chinese production is very close.

[guta]

Hi Syne7- Just to play devils advocate for a moment, I can guess the reason the receptionist may have been put off with one glance at your violin. It may simply be too shiny. Someone mentioned a while ago that some of the really good Chinese makers are now using oil varnish. I hope that this becomes more prevalent, because many- including myself - are not drawn to the "patent leather" look. It will of course soften with time, but who has that much time? P.S. For those who are strongly prejudiced against Chinese violins- This is a recent endeavor. I don't hear anybody complaining about Ming porcelain, Tang dynasty horses and vessels, or the ultra refined furniture made inChina two hundred years ago. ---------- All best, Larry.

[GlennYorkPA]

I totally agree about the shiny look.

I am having to go to some effort to reduce the shine on my ZSM violin because the surface reminds me of polyurethane.

I'm working with 600 grit sandpaper but I wish I didn't have to.

The irony is that it requires a great deal of work to produce that high gloss (and some people actually like it).

It's just not for me or most people I know.

[nickia]

here my chinese violin, how is it?

[fruitflier]

Hi, would somebody comment on the ZSM Masterpiece models like this one that is offering now? "http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=38108&item=7309283057&rd=1&ssPageName=WDVW"

I'm curious how good their masterpiece models are compared to those of the same price range in the retail shops.

[GlennYorkPA]

Hi Nickia,

Well, It's a Chinese violin of the modern generation and I don't know what else to tell you from these two pics.

It clearly shows the high gloss finish which doesn't appeal to me but it does to many. The choice of wood seems nice and the overall appearance is quite pleasant - a far cry from those cheap, spray painted Chinese fiddles that litter the market.

I like the corners and the edgework - there is really nothing to object to at all.

What's the story behind this violin?

Are you happy with it?

[Fellow]

A little too "sinny" as many have noticed. It looks great in general for that kind of price.($1000-$1500?)

[nickia]

my violin was made by Mr. Liang in Beijing April 2004.

I bought it directly China so I think it would be cheaper. I spent around $850 CDN for this violin, a decent oblong case, a bad bow and shipping+taxes.

Since I'm not an advanced player nor I did play other good violins, so I can't really judge how good it sounds. However I think this violin sounds significantly better than my school's "Copy of Strad, made in western germany" violins and my 3/4 crappy violin.

I took this violin to my teacher and she said it's well worth it.

Another point is when I knock at the back of the violin, I can hear a heavy ring sound around the chamber of the violin, kind the like the subwoofer. Is it good?

Thanks!

[Auelfan]

Without seeing the scroll, and except for the shine factor, a rosewood tailpiece and chin rest, this could be our "American Chinese French" fiddle which would appraise for roughly $6,000. We didn't judge it by its looks or its origins, and neither should you. I doubt you bought it because of its resale value, and if you did, then ultimately it will be worth only what someone else will pay for it. If it makes a beautiful sound to you and for you, it's a great violin.

Auelfan

[nickia]

here are few pictures i have taken of my bridge, do you think the gap between the violin is ok?

Thank you!

[Syne7]

How does one buy directly from China?

[T_Rocca]

is the violin on the picture a better quality violin of his works? I've seen a Birdseye maple made by the same maker, the craftmanship and varnish is different and much inferior.

[nickia]

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is the violin on the picture a better quality violin of his works? I've seen a Birdseye maple made by the same maker, the craftmanship and varnish is different and much inferior.

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Hi the violin shown on the pictures was not made by Mr. Zhang. It was by another chinese maker in Beijing.

[T_Rocca]

I see , I wonder how does it sounds? can you briefly describe the sound?

Thanks

[nickia]

I think the sound is full, big, strong and has echos. The violin chamber resonances the sound well.

that's all I can say about this violin since i'm a beginner(RCM grade 2 or 3)

[T_Rocca]

I see~ Thanks for the input.

Let me post my violins..

these is what I have in my double case during rehearsals

sorry I'm a messy person...

[musicalzoo]

T Rocca, your violins look good. How old are they and what else an you tell us about them. Also, please excuse my novice question: Are those called orchestra mutes? How do you decide which string to put them on, or do they always belong on the D string? I have been taking lessons for about 6 months and I'm going to start playing in my teacher's adult beginner group in a month or two, and I'm guessing I would use one of those in the group.

[T_Rocca]

I'm sorry to disappoint you! these violins are pretty new instruments and not as noteworthy as other members on this forum who have great violins on hand! I'm using these violin because they sounded good for the price, while my antique one is still in the shop, hopefully it could make it before my coming concert.

As for the mute, I think its more of a personal reference to put it on which strings. I'm an orchestral player who tends to mute evenly, some people puts them on G string for a brighter treble and for various other reasons. The score or your printed music which instruct you when to use them in a piece. There is also practice mute where you use them on all the time at night! I hope these answers your question and keep practing hard!