Holding the scroll as a "test"

[AMORI]

A quicky. When another local maker "tested" my violins he far more concerned with the feel of the scroll while bowing than with anything else including the absolute sound quality.

What would he have "looking" for by holding the scroll while bowing? Possibly some vibrations? And, what can be learnt this way?

[Guest]

Next time ask him. I'm curious as well. He's probably some weird outlier who's sniffed too many solvents.

[Ron1]

A local maker, while showing me an instrument he had made, asked me to feel the scroll as he plucked the strings- he wanted me to feel the vibrations produced there, & seemed to put some stock in that fact. Maybe it's not so strange?

[Andres Sender]

He probably tuned his fingerboard, which tends to make the instrument feel more lively (I have experienced that), but I gather it doesn't really do anything to the sound.

[Claire Curtis]

I'm waiting for someone who knows about this to speak up ... meanwhile I'll throw out an idea, and perhaps make a fool of myself...

You can test the BO mode by tapping on the scroll while holding the violin at the neck root or edge of the lower bouts (nodes for BO). So it makes sense to me that the test could go the other way. I'm not sure exactly what you're feeling for, though -- amplitude of vibration? Obvious peak at a particular bowed note, like the obvious peak you can feel when you hum into the ff-holes? .. Oded? Doug? Help me here...

Ah, Andres -- you posted while I was composing. I think we're on the same page, since fngerboard tuning is done to affect the BO vibration. I still don't know exactly what they're looking for, though. (I hear a lot about this sort of thing, but haven't used those techniques myself).

[Michael Darnton]

Go to http://schleske.de and wait until the photo changes to a wire-frame animation of a violin. Click on that, which takes you to a page where, via arrows, you can page through a series of these animations at various frequencies. Many of them involve lots of movement of the scroll. Whether a violin with an active scroll is a good one or a bad one is another question. I don't have any particular opinion on this (believe it or not!)

[Oded Kishony]

Some makers tune the vibration of the neck/fingerboard (aka B0) to the same note (frequency) as the air resonance of the body cavity (aka A0). If you hum a C# (+/-) into an F hole (that's the resonant frequency of most violin cavities) you can feel the violin vibrate. You can cover and uncover the other F hole while you're humming and hear the sound coming out, if you change the note the body stops vibrating the the sound no longer emanates from the F hole. Some folks put a lot of stock in matching A0 with B0. In a recent trial I did, I added a weight to the end of the fingerboard to make it match the air resonance while a player was trying out the instrument. The player had a clear preference for the mismatched state. Some makers like to have the fingerboard slightly mismatch, believing that this enlarges the sound or feel of the instrument. The response centers around a C# on the G string-this is what all the fuss is about.Keep in mind that a vibrating scroll does not radiate any sound! Much ado about nothing IMHO.

Oded Kishony

[Fellow]

I have another reason beside to learn the vibration of the body

of the violin. If you use your left hand hold the scroll of the violin, it is the "easiest" way to hold it on your shoulder. Neck comes in second, body last. As far as holding is concerned. /yuen/

[AMORI]

Interestingly, when this violin was first completed, without varnish, he and I tested (Chladni)the body cavity resonance and the fingerboard. They happened to be "perfect".

Although I am in favour of Chladni methods, to me they are not "everything". I use weight, tap tones as well. But, this guy is overboard as far as measurements are concerned.

[Michael Darnton]

In addition to all the numbers, the way it sounds should have some bearing on things, too. :-)

[Craig Tucker]

I wasn't going to write this down, but the thread has progressed to the point where I think it may apply - at least theoretically.

One maker I know claims that there is an important "node" (his words) coinciding exactly where the strings exit the nut, and that if you have this node off slightly, as in down on the fingerboard somewhere or up into the pegbox, then you will have conflicting impetus in the violin and it won't vibrate freely.

How he determined this, I have no idea, but he founds a great deal of effort on the principal and getting this node just right - specifically, he thins the fb before hand and then thins the neck itself once the violin is completed until the neck is "tuned" to his satisfaction (I believe he does this strung up in the white) - and he does make decent sounding violins.

Perhaps this is what "holding the scroll as a test" is attempting to measure?

[GlennYorkPA]

Craig, I think there might be something in this. I'm just not sure what.

I took one of my violins (quite a good one) and held it by the eyes of the scroll, then I tapped the center of the back with my knuckles and got a good ring.

I repeated this holding it at the shoulder of the neck with a similar result but if I held it half way down the neck, I just got a dull thud.

There ought to be some simple test like this to give us a clue whether the violin will be a good player or not but I have never come across such a test before.

Is there such a thing or is actually playing it the only way to go? (I mean leaving aside electronic equipment).

[MANFIO]

I think that playing is the only way to assess violin sound. If I take 10 violins I've made they will give the same sound if I tap them in different places, but they will sound differently under my bow.

[Craig Tucker]

"Is there such a thing or is actually playing it the only way to go? (I mean leaving aside electronic equipment)."

Well, aside from the fact that there is no arguing with the actual playing qualities of the violin, regardless of the particuars, then, if thinning down a thick neck works to bring the violin into line (and 90% of the time the problem with problematic necks is that they were made too thick and not too thin, or that the fb has not been reduced properly (thought I have seen necks that were too thin - not often mind you), then I'd say the proof was emperical that there is something going on that was fairly important with the neck/scroll mass having to do with tone.

I have always promoted the idea that a thick neck will impead the tone somehow.

However, I am not the least bit interested in the mechanics behind the phenomenon, other than realizing that the classic numbers work and getting too far away from them doesn't seem to work as well.

The best bet is just to stick to the established numbers as they are there for a reason just like with the string angles, rib heights and all the rest. One could get into the particulars regarding any aspect of building and dwell on why they did or did not work. If that's where your interest lies then you have a lifetime to try to figure it all out and that's not a bad thing to attempt, but I"m more pragmatic than that.

A properly made neck will work fine, and a thick one may not. More than that I will not comment on because I just don't know the particulars.

[Craig Tucker]

"I think that playing is the only way to assess violin sound. If I take 10 violins I've made they will give the same sound if I tap them in different places, but they will sound differently under my bow."

I agree. The answers that serve best are usually the simplest ones, aren't they?

[GlennYorkPA]

I guess I was writing more from a buyer's point of view rather than a makers.

In an auction situation, I'm not sufficiently egotistical to launch into a concerto on maybe 50 violins so I was hoping there might be a simple, accoustic test to indicate if the construction was optimized.

Often, violins aren't set up in playing condition anyway so all one has to go on are looks (or taps).

[MANFIO]

Hi Glenn, I understand you, but it's difficult to assess sound without playing, that's why perhaps some beautifull violins are not in playing condition in auction houses, with the exception of Tarisio, if I'm not wrong. They want the customer's thinking "this beautifull violin will sound great" and as a matter of fact the sound is poor, and that's why it's not stringed...

We an see some aspects that are closely related to sound, such as arching, their relation with the ribs, the model, we can even tap the instrument to see if the plates are not overthinned. But sometimes we come across a violin with beautifull arching, very well made etc that sounds poor. I had the oportunity to play some beautifull modern Italians that sounded really poor.

[Oded Kishony]

Hi Craig,

>...One maker I know claims that there is an important "node" (his words) coinciding exactly where the strings exit the nut,...<

Something to keep in mind is that if there's a node that runs through the nut it is only at >one< frequency. Is it likely that one note with a node running through the nut is going to make a huge difference? Not likely IMHO.

Oded

[AMORI]

Although I AM very concerned with aesthtics, for me, absolute sound quality is paramount! I may be in the minority here though, it SEEMS to me that some/many makers are more concerned with the technicalities.

For example, this "scroll test" guy was more concerned with micro measurements than he was with the (good) sound quality. Another example, when I asked a former orchestral player to try one of my violins, the first thing he did was run for a tape measure. He did eventually compliment the sound but in my opinion he should have played first and then, if it was not comfortable or responsive or sounded bad, reach for the tape measure.