Woodland Posted March 11, 2005 Report Share Posted March 11, 2005 In these days of educational budgetary neglect, I find myself hearing the same phrase from school teachers over and over again with regards to their stringed instrument repairs, "just make it playable". I've been hearing this a little too often these days, with instruments in such horrid condition, (which were pieces of cr*p to begin with (Sherl & Roth, William Lewis and the like), that have been beaten to snot over the years, and "repaired" very badly over and over again. I've seen my share of bass and cello necks that have been pegged, bolted, glued and reglued again. Sure, that can be a practical way to repair student instruments, but there's only so many times one can attempt to fix it. The schools can't get money for new instruments, they only have pathetic budgets to work with (they don't have the funds to give the instruments the repairs they need, if they're worth repairing that is). It's even gotten to the point that I've had to refuse a few repair jobs because I told the teacher I wasn't going to facilitate the Chicago Public Schools wasting what little money they have. It's truly a shame (plus I'm sure this isn't news to many of the other repairmen and teachers on this board). When I show the teachers just what high quality Chinese instruments they can get these days for a fraction of the cost of the old German war horses, their jaws just about hit the floor. Still, they just don't have the funds available for new instruments that they desperately need. They can only afford "meatball surgery" to buy just a little more life out of those old, horrid-sounding beaters. Sure, kids beat instruments to death sometimes, but if they need new stuff, they need new stuff. Is it ever possible/likely that public schools can get private grant money for music programs? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Darnton Posted March 11, 2005 Report Share Posted March 11, 2005 If we change to a different federal government that cares about education, possibly. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Woodland Posted March 11, 2005 Author Report Share Posted March 11, 2005 That's another one of my points, I just purposely tried to avoid a political discussion... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
guta Posted March 11, 2005 Report Share Posted March 11, 2005 We seem to be on two forums at the moment- this may be a milestone in the history of M.N. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Woodland Posted March 11, 2005 Author Report Share Posted March 11, 2005 I posted this thread on two forums (I hope Jeffrey doesn't mind) because it really crosses both worlds... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Regis Posted March 11, 2005 Report Share Posted March 11, 2005 Never saw that as a "federal" government issue. Never could understand why Boston would get part of Houston's education budget or New Jersey should get some of Florida's. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Darnton Posted March 11, 2005 Report Share Posted March 11, 2005 Them who regulates pays. That's the way I see it. If they don't want to pay the bills, then they shouldn't demand things be done their way. Right now we have a federal government that likes to micro-manage, but doesn't want to pay the bills that micro-managing causes. Of course the federal government doesn't have much use for the 10th amendment (nor any of the others, it seems) these days--if they did, there wouldn't be a problem. Enough politics, though.. I'm finished. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Regis Posted March 11, 2005 Report Share Posted March 11, 2005 I agree, 10th amendment, that is. Fed has no business there. Should be state regulated (and funded). It's such a shame that I only have one vote or I could fix this Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SteveLaBonne Posted March 11, 2005 Report Share Posted March 11, 2005 Quote: If we change to a different federal government that cares about education, possibly. Alas, I think we'd really have to change into a whole different society that cared about education, and about the arts. BTW we actually spend top dollar by international standards on "education", the problem is that so much of it is wasted and / or misallocated. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Claire Curtis Posted March 11, 2005 Report Share Posted March 11, 2005 We don't support education at all -- just schooling. The original purpose of public education was to provide a populace with the critical thinking skills necessary for an informed electorate, and to insure cultural continuity. That concept has been replaced by one of training the workforce. Big difference. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SteveLaBonne Posted March 11, 2005 Report Share Posted March 11, 2005 Agreed. With the additional comment that most of the time we don't even do the training competently. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
guta Posted March 11, 2005 Report Share Posted March 11, 2005 This reminds me of clearing the table after Thanksgiving dinner. If everybody sits and waits for the host to clear the table it takes forever. If each guest takes one or two things out to the kitchen themselves, it can be done almost instantaneously. Just a thought. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John_Jesseph Posted March 11, 2005 Report Share Posted March 11, 2005 I think of it as a reflection of socio-economics. People aren't exactly clammoring for these programs here. However, if you tried to cut sports in public schools, you'd be run out of town. Our rust-belt town has a community arts center, established several years ago in an old, essentially abandoned, Masonic Temple. All the programs are cheap, and free if students even remotely qualify. Our kids take their piano lessons there, and used to take Suzuki group lessons there. Two years ago, the newspaper did an article on the after-school arts program, kind of a latch-key program to give kids something productive to do before their parents get them. The newspaper featured a big photo of our then five year old, and interviewed two kids. One of the interviewees was taking violin, but said he didn't like it too much, would rather be a rapper. The other interviewee was a homeschooler, like our kids. As a matter of fact, most of the kids there were either homeschoolers or doctor's kids. The newspaper didn't pick up on the irony of the fact that the kids there for the most part were with stay at home moms, or not even in public school. I think the enthusiasm for this type of stuff has really sunk, and the community at large has to find some value in it... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SteveLaBonne Posted March 11, 2005 Report Share Posted March 11, 2005 The only contribution most of us can make, besides trying to identify and vote for the very rare politician who has some kind of functional brain and at least a rudimentary desire to serve the public, is to insure that our own kids become educated. As taxpayers we unfortunately have very little control over what a dysfunctional system does with the $$ we have to cough up. Some of the worst school districts in the country (eg. Washington, DC) have some of the highest per-pupil expenditures, but where most of the money goes, God alone knows. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DougP Posted March 11, 2005 Report Share Posted March 11, 2005 Wonder how many violins, pianos, easels, paintbrushes, etc. one week of war expenses in Iraq would buy? We should have invaded Canada. It has better climate, the people are nice, it is closer, and they threatened us as much as Iraq did. It was harder to make up lies about Canada's weapons of mass destruction, cause we could go there and take a look ourselves. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SteveLaBonne Posted March 11, 2005 Report Share Posted March 11, 2005 I wish it was quite that simple. Just handing more money to the people who currently run bad urban school systems is unlikely to produce good results. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
johnsr Posted March 11, 2005 Report Share Posted March 11, 2005 But gentlemen does not the client have the say so...even if wrong...have not other so called "liberal social systems" failed all people except those in power??? Other craftsmen follow orders and many of them are licensed for proficiency...should luthiers/repairmen who are not controlled be different??? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Darnton Posted March 11, 2005 Report Share Posted March 11, 2005 Who gets to say who's in and who's out? I'm a perfect case--I have eight years of training by some of the very best people in the business, both restorers and makers, none of whom went to an approved school, and none of whom belong to any of the "trade" organizations. On the other hand, many of those who'd get licenses based on their training or affiliation have six thumbs on each hand and are some of the worst in the business. Painters, sculptors, potters, woodcarvers--none of the similar trades are licensed because of the problems involved, and the fact that training does nothing at all to indicate competence. It's a personal pet peeve of mine that the ONLY organization in this country which was formed to establish standards for violin work and business ethics *continued* to have as its president, without censure or comment, someone who'd fled the country and was being sought by the FBI for fraud against his customers. You want these people in charge of things? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Richf Posted March 11, 2005 Report Share Posted March 11, 2005 I used to think the problem was the education budget. My daughter's elementary school had had an orchestra years ago, but due to "budget cuts" we were told they could no longer afford instruments. Then last year there was a minor fire at the school. It started in the basement. I didn't even know that they had a basement, but my daughter said, "sure, that's where they keep all the old band instruments." So the real problem wasn't the budget for instruments, it was finding a teacher who wanted to do it. When I was in grade school, one single teacher gave lessons on multiple instruments and ran the orchestra and the choir. School music teachers today seem to want to stick with the recorder (or at least that's my impression). If the problem really is with the budget, is there any reason the parents can't be asked to help out -- we pay for all sorts of other services (like a school nurse) that should be provided by the school district. Any music teachers with a different view? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Regis Posted March 11, 2005 Report Share Posted March 11, 2005 QUOTE: "Painters, sculptors, potters, woodcarvers--none of the similar trades are licensed because of the problems involved, and the fact that training does nothing at all to indicate competence. " I believe licensing is used when there are standards or other measurable efforts for mostly (or at least nearly) repeatable processes. Those professions with artistry as an integral part do not fall into this licensing concept. Violin Playing, restoring, completely making are some of these. My view is that training is necessary to acheive a basic level of producing. Then some amount of repeatable performance of work is necessary to acheive a firm foundations in fundementals. One of 2 outcomes are then likely: (1)individual will accumulate many years of 1 year's experience or (2)true skill and ability to learn more will emerge, in which case progress and true professionalism can be achieved. In the 2nd case, there is value in more training or demonstration/discussion by advanced professionals. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rcc Posted March 12, 2005 Report Share Posted March 12, 2005 I'm not sure how "Just make it playable" morphed into a discussion on licensing but what the hey... Licensing violin makers is silly. One might as well be licensing jewelry makers, photographers, furniture makers, sculptors, ... I don't see a clear need to protect the public from bad violin making. The public seems to be doing a reasonably good job of that on its own. - Ray Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HongDa Posted March 12, 2005 Report Share Posted March 12, 2005 Quote: If the problem really is with the budget, is there any reason the parents can't be asked to help out -- we pay for all sorts of other services (like a school nurse) that should be provided by the school district. Any music teachers with a different view? When I went to school I remember having to get our own instruments which could be paid for on a monthly basis.The school only provided a few larger instruments like bass drums. Maybe some system could be set up where the government helps poor families pay a percentage of the instrument. Talented kids should get something similar as a reward system. As far as education,....I think parents are responsible for initiating interest in the first place. Can't resist putting this up [image][/image] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
johnsr Posted March 12, 2005 Report Share Posted March 12, 2005 Sorry if my post offended anyone but to the general public who attempt to obtain a repair/restoration for a violin there are not many sources for information or help in choosing. Members of this forum are great in sharing information but when you have no access to this forum it is very difficult to obtain direction. The yellow pages in New Jersey USA have no listing for "luthiers"...I doubt that many of the general public know what the word represents. Again sorry for the confusion. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Craig Tucker Posted March 12, 2005 Report Share Posted March 12, 2005 In reply to the very first post on this thread: I too am (was) a school district repair person. All along, since I took over here, it has been a "just get it playable" work ethic also. The former repair person, who I knew fairly well, was stuck in the same boat himself for a number of years before I came along and took over. This last year the budget was cut again to a level that allowed for what amounts to charity work only, if that. Then, beginning this spring, the school district went to one of the local music stores (who, by the way, doesn't have a specific string repairman, but who does rent string instruments out and who uses me for their rehairs and some of their string repairs) for the repairs, ostensibly because they came in “lower on the bid”. This legendary “bid” process is something that I’ve never really seen or participated in While I was willing to do the repairs for the school district for next to nothing, I am not sorry to see the job go south, as this will allow me to get on with building and selling violins which is really my first love, and will also allow me to pursue my other business (a yard service) which in the long run is much less trying in many respects. I don't really care one way or the other what the schools (in general) do or don't do with regard to their orchestra programs. I’m happy to be finished with attempting to re-repair an endless stream of instruments that should have all been replaced thirty years ago, for what works out to be about minimum wage. Also, I’m just not up to rallying behind whatever political/educational bandwagon one must rally behind in order to attempt to change the focus of the current state of education. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Craig Tucker Posted March 12, 2005 Report Share Posted March 12, 2005 Hongda, cute picture, I take it that is your son? Working in the shop? Now that's taking "inexpensive" labor to new heights! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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