Tarisio auction - opinion wanted

[warren]

Dear all,

Following the ending of the February auction, Tarisio is now clearing the unsold items. Just now I received an email from Tarisio which contains an offer to sell me lot no.95 at the price of $350. Do you guys think I should take it?

see the three attachments for photos of the violin)

Regards,

warren

[warren]

2nd photo

[warren]

third photo

[fingerbord]

Warren, I can find these all the time for one hundred dollars or less. but you do what you think. find out also about shipping cost.

[pahdah_hound]

I bought 2 violins from the past Tarisio sale and I liked them very much. One was much more and the other was less. The less expensive one is surprisingly decent.

Jesse

[Regis]

Quote:

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Warren, I can find these all the time for one hundred dollars or less. but you do what you think. find out also about shipping cost.

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Fingerboard,

I'll take a 1/2 dozen of those that look that good for under $100 each. Send me PM for payment and shipping info.

In the last Tarisio I bought one 'about' like Warren is looking at at 'about' the same price and am very very pleased.

Warren,

How does the description read? If their estimate was much greater than the $350 they are asking, you have a chance of good value. If that was the top of their estimate, I'd be leary because many people got to inspect "hands-on" and it didn't sell.

[regent]

That is one fine looking violin....

Warren, I downloaded the pictures and found something very interesting in the belly, just below both ff holes. It appears to me that a filet knife has been used to fit new or different wood into the belly.

To my mind, this can be for only one of three reasons.

1. The ff holes have been altered to appear like those of another maker. Y-K-W.

2. The wood was added for repair / restoration.

3. The wood was flawed with knots or large sap pockets, but acoustically good enough for the maker to use it anyway, and he went to the trouble of fitting the pieces in the necessary places.

I have seen a very fine violin, possibly by Allesandro Gagliano, labeled, and twice "certified", (it is not), as by a modern maker (Felice Oliveri 1901) from Rome, Italy. The violin was altered in much the same fashion to "appear" as a del Gesu, but with much more "restoration" to the c bouts in the belly.

I do not know if the owners are participants in this forum but if this is read by them they will know exactly what I mean.

[warren]

Thanks for all the reply.

Quote:

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Warren,

How does the description read? If their estimate was much greater than the $350 they are asking, you have a chance of good value. If that was the top of their estimate, I'd be leary because many people got to inspect "hands-on" and it didn't sell.

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The description reads: "AN INTERESTING VIOLIN Unlabeled. Altered sound holes, otherwise excellent

condition. LOB 35.9 cm". The estimate was $500 to $800. I once emailed Tarisio and asked a few questions about this violin (they did not answer me though). I guess that's why they think I may be interested in the violin and come back to me when it did not sell. How they arrive at the price of $350 I have no idea.

Regards,

Warren

[warren]

Thanks Regent for your observation. Here is an enlarged view of the f hole area. Hope it shows the alternation better.

Regards,

Warren

[regent]

My pleasure!! If I were you, I would buy that fiddle in a heartbeat. It is a lot older than it looks, and in outstanding condition for the age. That crackled orange/red varnish on the back is very interesting. I'll bet a pretty penny that once it is set in good order, the tone of it will blow your mind.

I sure wish you would let a friend of mine look at it, and do the work for you. When he gets done with restoring and setting up a fiddle, it will sound as good as it possibly can.

sorry...I meant if you decide to buy it...

[warren]

Hi Regent.

I have already accepted the offer. Let's hope that the violin will turn out fine. I guess I will take the violin to a local luthier. Not that I don't trust your friend, but I'm a bit reluctant to ship the violin across the Pacific back and forth.

Cheers,

Warren

[regent]

That is great news!! Please do us all a favor, take some good closeup pictures of the ff holes/cbouts and post them on Maestronet. I bet you will love that fiddle forever!! I hope so!!

[jackc]

That looks to me to be a very good repair. As Michael Darnton would say, "perfect is acceptable". It's not perfect, but the line of the ff was restored nicely, and the graft is good. I'll bet most people wouldn't notice the repair. And repairs like that are not often made to bad violins, so that's a clue that it's a decent fiddle.

[Michael Darnton]

That's a type of repair that was supposed to look really good when fresh (I've never seen a fresh one because no one does them anymore because. . .) but they don't age well, and the ends of the sawteeth open up with time. When the repair was new, it probably looked much better than it does now.

[regent]

Isn't this type of work considered to be first class repair / restoration? The violin I have seen, handled and played was done by a highly skilled luthier or restorer. It should take an experienced appraiser / expert / or dealer about one second to see the obvious intent of the one who did this. Either the intent was deception, (most likely) considering the conspiracy of Vuilluame and John Lott, or the most careful, skillful work my eyes have ever seen. There was complete half-edge restoration of the back and belly and the neck had the appearance of being replaced twice. The evidence was there, I saw it, I know what I saw, and you would too, given the opportunity.

My first glance at the form and outline said del Gesu, but a magnifying glass began to bring out many questions. Check out the Alexander Gagliano viola in Cozio Registry. All the indications are there. The violin I examined could have been deliberately altered by John Lott and sold as a del Gesu, by whom, I wouldn't know. That is the most likely story, at least from my experiences, and observations.

It all boils down to this, well intended deception, wrought out by highly skilled hands, nefarious label swapping / covering, with inept expert appraisal adding fuel to the fire, makes me mad as hell, even if it happened more than a century past. I have copies of the "certificates" in my possession, although they are from the past 30 years or so.

I can safely say the "work" was done well over 100 years ago and is to this day, as sound as it was in the beginning.

I said all that to say this. You always seem to have some type of 'yada yada' comeback when someone "beats you to the draw". Do you have false sense of insecurity?? There is no need to. You have a strong following of supporters who, no doubt, need your expertise, experience, and obvious ability to get the point across, especially when it comes to lutherie.

Nonetheless, there are others who know just as much, if not more than you about the history of violin making and the ancient makers even though they may be considered "amateur".

Don't take offense for no offense is intended. But... do not forget what I have written. I've been around enough to know.

[Michael Darnton]

If you saw the repair, it was not skillful, that's the bottom line.

[Jeffrey Holmes]

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That's a type of repair that was supposed to look really good when fresh (I've never seen a fresh one because no one does them anymore because. . .) but they don't age well, and the ends of the sawteeth open up with time. When the repair was new, it probably looked much better than it does now.

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Actually, I've seen a fresh one that you may have seen a while ago, Michael. It was an Amati as I recall... I think it had a Rugeri label? Anyway, the restoration was performed early on in the B & F shop (while this was a more common approach)... early/mid '80s I think. Most of the lower half of the f holes on both sides were pieced together with dozens of thin inserts (not broad ones like the photo from this thread). Nice job as it goes... more sophisicated than this one... didn't catch it right away.

Saw the same fiddle in an auction (Christie's I think) about 12 years later. Either the repair was slightly more obvious, I recalled the fiddle before I realized it, or my eyes were in a bit better shape, but caught the repair quickly.

[Michael Darnton]

Yes. Now they would do it completely differently, and you'd not see it at all.

[Jeffrey Holmes]

Agreed.

[regent]

How can you possibly say that, and really mean it? It is believed that Vuilluame lengthened and raised the neck heel of the "Harrison" long pattern Strad. Those repairs or "modern adjusments" are clearly visible. The same thing goes for the Messiah of 1716.

You have said that some neck grafts, if done by a master, could not be found. I disagree with that simply because there is no way to naturally cut and fit two different pieces of maple or pine, and the joint be completely invisible. It may be disguised, and rendered not visible, but not invisible.

Modern restoration techniques have evolved into highly technical procedures which to my mind completely take away the true character of the appearance of age and an insult to the violin itself. Muesum restorations more or less preserve the appearance of severly damaged instruments, with no real attempt to make them useful again. One might as well dope the wood with formaldehyde, because the instrument is nothing but a corpse. Fortunately, not all museum restorers are incompetent.

Besides that, it is an open door for more deception, if the restoration which has been rendered not visible, at least from the outward appearance, is not revealed to a prospective buyer. Especially if the client was prepared to spend a couple million, for any instrument. THAT is the bottom line. Honesty, truthfulness, and integrity is woefully lacking in the so-called "high-end market". One more thing, you wrote a while back that "for all practical purposes" a genuine fiddle was not genuine until a "certificate of authenticty", was issued from someone who sold them????// Then you said that is what he 'wished he could do that all the time, and not worry with the shop business'. Who is the guy, anyway??

[Jeffrey Holmes]

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Modern restoration techniques have evolved into highly technical procedures which to my mind completely take away the true character of the appearance of age and an insult to the violin itself. Muesum restorations more or less preserve the appearance of severly damaged instruments, with no real attempt to make them useful again. One might as well dope the wood with formaldehyde, because the instrument is nothing but a corpse. Fortunately, not all museum restorers are incompetent.

Besides that, it is an open door for more deception, if the restoration which has been rendered not visible, at least from the outward appearance, is not revealed to a prospective buyer.

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Regent;

I'm sure Michael will have his own view.

I'll give you that, in terms of rhetoric, it might be better to say "difficult to detect" or "not visible to the untrained eye" than invisible. OK. 'nuff said.

As for the portion of your post listed above; Maybe you are not aware that modern restoration technique has grown closer to conservation over the last three decades?? Technical, some procedures are... but the idea is to take away as little as possible of the original character... Habits of French polishing instruments, indecriminant inlays and invasive varnish restoration have been dying out for decades. Repairs like saw tooth inlays (sub-subject of this thread) that have a short "half life" have been rethought and new procedures have been adopted. These new techniques often have less to do with "new technology" than the adoption of less invasive and/or more effective techniques that have been tested by time.

As far as integrity and deception: It the policy of a good many of us to carefully review restorations present with the prospective buyer. Indeed, a good portion of my work week is spent reviewing instruments for clients considering a purchase from others as well. I imagine instruments I offer end up being reviewed by others... Besides being the honorable thing to do, informing the customer is simply a smart business practice. I’ve found that those spending 6 or 7 figures on a fiddle are usually quite savvy.

[regent]

Your comments are somewhat informative, and appreciated, but what are the specifics of indecriminant inlays, and invasive varnish restoration which have been dying out for decades??

What does what you term "half-life" mean??

The sawtoothed inlays I saw were exceedingly well done, considering the times, and are as sound today as when they were accomplished, no matter who did it or for what reason.

If that work, even though visible with a magnifying glass, was not skillful and highly professional, it wouldn't have lasted half as long as it has. The blending of the varnish was the best part of the whole job, and if I were not familiar with such things, would have never seen the differences. I am personally acquainted with this case, and not ignorant of what I have observed.

Less invasive than what?? Be specific, show or illustrate some of those adaptations and changes, and give the reasons why past techniques have been rethought, and how have they been tested by time. To me the real test of time is more than 50 years, and most of the participants haven't been here long enough to be really familiar with these things, unless they have been involved for many many years or since early youth.

No doubt, millioniares are quite savvy, but some of them are quite savvy thieves. Especially crooked violin dealers. Do you know who I am referring to?? Do you have the guts to go that route??

[Jeffrey Holmes]

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Your comments are somewhat informative, and appreciated, but what are the specifics of indecriminant inlays, and invasive varnish restoration which have been dying out for decades??

What does what you term "half-life" mean??

The sawtoothed inlays I saw were exceedingly well done, considering the times, and are as sound today as when they were accomplished, no matter who did it or for what reason.

If that work, even though visible with a magnifying glass, was not skillful and highly professional, it wouldn't have lasted half as long as it has. The blending of the varnish was the best part of the whole job, and if I were not familiar with such things, would have never seen the differences. I am personally acquainted with this case, and not ignorant of what I have observed.

Less invasive than what?? Be specific, show or illustrate some of those adaptations and changes, and give the reasons why past techniques have been rethought, and how have they been tested by time. To me the real test of time is more than 50 years, and most of the participants haven't been here long enough to be really familiar with these things, unless they have been involved for many many years or since early youth.

No doubt, millioniares are quite savvy, but some of them are quite savvy thieves. Especially crooked violin dealers. Do you know who I am referring to?? Do you have the guts to go that route??

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I'm sorry you don't find my post informative enough, although I don't think it was less specific than yours was. I honestly don't have the desire to cover a wide spectrum specific tecniques or present a case history here. I'll answer a couple of your questions in a general way, if you like.

Dying out: Removal of varnish in the area of repair and massive retouching and revarnishing of large areas (then "blended" by polishing), large inlay patches (in general, but especially in areas other than the soundpost), pegbox cheeking, and sawtooth style wood replacement.

I borrowed the term "half life" to describe the point at which a repair is no longer visably successful, but has not as yet failed.

Yes, I've seen plenty of incredible jigsaw puzzle repairs from the Hill shop and others in my time. Impressive work. Often (but not aways) not approached in the same maner it would be now... Some of these repairs tended to be a bit invasive.... as is the varnish (blending) work on such a job.

One should never confuse "guts" with stupidity. All professions have their repective "dark sides". I don't feel it appropriate to air the dirty laundry here... and I find many who seem to express strong feelings about the dirt, without apparent difficulty, are not as informed as they could/should be... or think they have something to gain by doing so.

[Guy_Gallo]

Jeffrey.

Once again, I admire your restraint.

[bean_fidhleir]

Michael and Jeffrey -- I, too, admire your restraint.