Silver bow windings

[Brad Dorsey]

When a bow is described as "silver-mounted," this refers to the metal fittings of the frog and button - not the winding. The winding is often replaced, either to replace an old one that has worn out or to modify the weight and balance of the bow. The metal fittings of the frog and button are usually permanent, only being replaced if the originals are destroyed or lost.

[Regis]

There are several jewelers' supply houses in New Mexico where you can buy silver in various gauges. Thunderbird Jewelers Supply , Rio Grande , Indian Jeweler's Supply and others. I mostly use Indian Jeweler's Supply in Gallup but their web site (anf Thunderbird) seems to be down this morning. Phone# is (505)722-4451

[Craig Tucker]

I've bought from Rio Grande before, and the nice thing is that since they are mainly a jewlery supply store, you can buy in smaller foot quantities from a huge spool.

At the time I bought silver wire there, six or seven years ago, they didn't stock it in a diameter anywhere near small enough for bow wrap winding purposes. I haven't checked them recently.

0.22mm to 0.40mm are usual thicknesses for wrap windings.

[fiddlecollector]

I buy it through this guy Preston Reuther http://wire-sculpture.com/

The manufacturers website is http://www.apmtargets.com/

Its academy precision materials not metals, sorry!

[Regis]

Rio catalog show down to 30 guage (0.2540mm). 0.40mm is about 26 guage and that's getting pretty large. Although I should run some 26 guage fine silver through a rolling mill and put a very small pattern on it. Should make for a very decrative wrap and it should be a little easier to put the flat wire on. I'll let you know how it turns out.

[Craig Tucker]

Cool, that ought to be very interesting. I'd love to see it if you can post a pic when you're done.

0.2540mm or even slightly larger would work fine.

Just as an aside, I love working with silver. Both as a bow wrap and as a jewlery making medium. I've never worked with gold (yet), but I would assume that it is also very satisfying to work with.

I am also seriously contemplating looking into snake skin for a wrap material, since there is ample opportunity to acquire it on the roadside around here in the summer months...

There is a taxidermist(sp?) here in town who could probably answer my questions about the feasability of using it, and how to prepare it.

[Regis]

I don't know about the snake skin but, in one way, gold is much easier to solder. Higher temp but, heat does not spread like silver. You can solder a single point and not raise the temperature of the entire piece as high as silver for good solder jont. There is easy gold solder just like silver but, I haven't seen any of the 400 degree stuff like you can find for silver. "And" Pernambuco smoldering in your shop is not a pleasant thing.

[fiddlecollector]

I scour second hand and charity shops looking for snake and lizard skin handbags,etc.. We can`t import it but my way is a very cheap source. Also theres a never ending supply of handbags on ebay!!

I bought half a antique ivory tusk weighing 5 kg last year at auction for 20 pounds which is very handy for repairs.I wouldn`t dream of using recent ivory but its a good source of antique ivory.

[GlennYorkPA]

Bob, Tell us a little more about these silk windings.

They appear on some modern Chinese bows and look very smart because they seem to interlace different colors, but I assumed that they would not last very long compared to metal or even plastic.

Do you have any experience with the durability of silk windings?

Why don't we use small, disposeable rubber sleeves over, or instead of the windings?

It seems that the comfort and ergonomics of this vital interface with the player has not been redesigned for a century or two.

Maybe time for a rethink?

[Singingmaple]

What works better for Silver windings. Half hard or dead soft?

[Regis]

Dead soft. The more you move it the harder/springier is gets. Try to set your spool such that it comes off and onto the bow (in the same direction/curve) and handle it as little as possible. I solder with an easyflow but you may want to tie off or use hole or glue.

If you solder, test your flux 'first' on a junker.

[Claire Curtis]

I love using silk. I have several spools of different colors, and like to set up a nice pattern of alternating colors.

I was taught to use the winding material to balance the bow, so use of silk or silver is determined by the weight and balance of the bow. If the bow is just about right as is, use silk, because the weight is negligible. Use lighter-gauge silver to pull the weight back into the hand a little bit, and heavier gauge silver to move the balance point even closer to the hand. The weight needed will also determine how far the winding goes under the thumb leather. Gold is heavier than silver, so adjust the wire length accordingly.

The french method of bowmaking involves balancing the bow as you work on it, so a french-method made bow is more likely to be already balanced, and hence demand silk winding. (Unless, of course, the maker wanted to use silver or gold and planed the bow accordingly). German factory bows are usually manufactured so that metal winding or whalebone is appropriate.

Whalebone, of course, has an intermediate effect on weight.

[Regis]

I sure agree with your balance logic. Do you use silk just on new bows or do you suggest change to clients? I like the look of silk myself but, rarely use it. I also like wrapping it much better than anything else (using fly tyer's spool holder). But, I simply replace wire/silver or syn whale bone as appropriate.

Do you come up with your own color pattern or are there some good examples in famous old bows?

[fiddlecollector]

Glen, i wrote you a lrather long reply yesterday to your post but unfortunately when i went back to correct something the whole post was lost.

Silk is very hard wearing ,ive seen original silk wrapping from the early 19th century that was still intact.It tend to take on a polished apearance after much contact with skin oils ,etc..

The silk is often put on in layers or inmingled with tinsel,which makes a very attrcative pattern.Also by adjusting the widths of the tinsel segments/or colours of the silk, the pattern is limitless and open to your imagination. Some coloured silks look better on darker sticks ,other look better on lighter sticks. Even Sartory was fond of a dark almost black silk with a tinsel pattern.I`ve seen two similar bows with exactly the same pattern.

Also remember that when the silk wrappings were the norm in the baroque and transitional periods, they usually didn`t have a thumbgrip/pad either.I blame thumbgrips for much of the damge to good bows that are seen with the characteristic deep groove between the toe of the frog and the grip.It seems to centre the thumb pressure on one single point on the stick which is a bad thing.If you look at 200 year old bows which have not had a thumbgrip on there is usually no wear noticable at this point.

Heres a thumbgrip that will give good protection although a bit uusual.And quite extreme.

[GlennYorkPA]

Hi Bob, Don't you just hate it when messages go missing like that? but I appreciate your re-writing it.

You nicely cleared up the question of the silk durability. I had noooo idea it would last so long.

I guess you can't beat a product that mother nature took millions of years to perfect!

I'm not sure I buy in to your theory about thumb grips being the cause of the damage we often see.

Opinions about how to hold the bow have changed over the years and included holding the bow much more towards to tip. One wonders if the original purpose of the lapping was to provide a grip rather than the pressure point it has become today.

I see the logic of the thumb grip in your picture. It looks so comfortable I might even give it a try!

[Claire Curtis]

I usually replace windings with what was there. But I have a couple of dowels in the shop that I've used for practice in making patterns, and sometimes people ask about getting one 'like that'. Or if the bow is butt-heavy I might suggest a change. Sometimes a player comes in who has been using a bow with no winding, and they like the bow as is; then I may suggest silk.

I don't try to recreate a particular historical pattern; I've never been asked to. But sometimes I've seen a bows with nice patterns and stolen ideas .

[Regis]

Thank you. I like your idea about having some sample patterns on dowels. That will, at least, be a good place to bring up the idea to a player (where balance will be unaffected or improved).

[Jimbow]

I have been very pleased with the products and service of

Steven H Beckley for bow materials.

http://www.bowworks.com

Jimbow

[luthier]

As an update, Craig, Riogrande has .999 30 gauge silver wire now, at a very decent price per oz. ($32 with tax and shipping), compared to $179 on Amazon for 25 grams.

[Craig Tucker]

 

As an update, Craig, Riogrande has .999 30 gauge silver wire now, at a very decent price per oz. ($32 with tax and shipping), compared to $179 on Amazon for 25 grams.

 

Ahh, my thanks luthier, I'm dealing with them (Riogrande) for the flat silver stock for making the frogs "fittings" presently...

 

Yes, their silver pricing is very fair.

$32 an ounce? that's not bad - what's silver now? - $15oz bullion?...

[luthier]

I don't know the current price for bullion, but you are definitely in the ball park.

[Craig Tucker]

Yes.

Silver is back down.

 

Not quite to where it was, ($4+ oz.) but reasonable enough.

I sold much of mine at one of its recent peaks, a few years back...

 

Whew! 

 

So, is it time to buy more again? 

[nathan slobodkin]

A spring type clothes pin with the wood parts replaced with brass can be clipped on the free end of the wire and will hold it tight for soldering. I start the wrap from the tip end by bending about a centimeter of wire at a right angle, tape that to the under side of the bow and then wrap over it towards the frog end. When I have about 5 mm of the tag end covered  and tight I clip off the excess and continue wrapping towards the frog end and use the brass clothes pin to hold the wire until it is soldered. The thumb leather covers the solder.