Silver bow windings

[muddycreek]

I have a bow that the silver bow windings have come loose on the end that has the leather. How do you all secure the silver windings prior to installing the new leather?

[Craig Tucker]

The end needs to be soldered with silver solder.

[Woodland]

Another way to do it is to drill a tiny shallow hole underneath where the winding will eventually cover it and secure it with a small dowel or even a toothpick. Some people may not wish to alter the stick, but it's another option...

[muddycreek]

Thanks, I thought about the solder but didn't think about a hole. I think I'll try the solder first, it's a little less intrusive.

[Andrew Victor]

I have secured that end perfectly well with a touch of superglue. And then the leather covers the end to delay further wear.

Andy

[Craig Tucker]

More on the subject:

The soldering is MUCH easier to do with two people.

Put the stick in a leather jawed vice, frog mortice up, and clamp it firmly in place, wrap the silver winding back on as far and tight as you can while still being able to pull it tight (I use tiny bent needle nose plyers with teeth on the jaws to hold the wire tight), use plenty of flux and solder it as quickly as you can on the underside. Use a small amount of solder and melt it in as well as you can. I clip off the protruding end flush with a sharp stainless steel chisel blade then file any solder that sits above the level of the wire carefully down with a fine jewlers file, then buff the area out carefully with #0000 or #00000 steel wool. If you are careful with the amount of solder it won't be much, if any. If the wire is silver coated copper, then you will probably expose some of the copper but that is better than having it continue to unravel.

Usually, I'll put a new leather wrap on that overlaps the exposed end of the winding - And I will add a collar at the tip end of the winding if there wasn't one there to begin with - it all depends on how much effort you want to put into the job and how nice of a stick it is.

[GlennYorkPA]

What would it cost (in terms of materials) to use real silver wire?

Are we talking a dollar or two or big bucks?

It seems that if you are going to this much trouble, silver coated copper wire seems a bit cheapskate.

I assume it won't be long before the silver wears off.

[Craig Tucker]

That works well too.

Sometimes, especially on cheaper bows where the repair cost won't support a better quality fix, I'll tighten the wire wrap back up as well as possible, then run a bead of thin superglue along the entire length of wire wrap, (on the underside of course) then also superglue the usually frayed "leather" wrap edge back to the wire/stick...

A $35 to $75 dollar bow can often be replaced cheaper than it can be re-wrapped if it is a new wrap that is being considered.

Unfortunately I don't stock any wire but pure silver, since rewrapping junk is not really feasible cost-wise for me in a business setting, but again - they can usually be repaired on the cheap for a few more years of use without too much effort.

[Craig Tucker]

To be honest, the cost of a single bow's silver wrap isn't very high, I've never bothered doing the math but I wouldn't put it over $5.00 in silver wire - it is more a matter of having the material at hand, knowing how to do the job, and being extremely meticulous in doing the job so that it looks right.

Otherwise it is simply better (and cheaper) to either do a cheap fix or to buy a new bow if we are talking about a cheap steel or silver coated copper wrap...

Those are the economics of the situation. Otherwise you cannot make enough money considering materials and the amount of time necessary.

If the bow is your own or that of a friend, and you are not in a business setting, then you could easily spend the entire afternoon rounding up thr materials, setting up things, and doing the repair for an enjoyable hobby type experience. Such a thing is well worth the effort for a do-it-yourselfer where it might not be worth a busy repair persons time.

Unfortunately it might not be possible to stay afloat doing such jobs with any regularity - since you can't really charge anywhere near what it is worth to do a quality silver rewrap on a really cheap bow.

[Craig Tucker]

Hobby information and business information should really be considered each in their own seperate light.

Consider a business senario:

that you'd have to have a spool of 99.99% silver wire already on hand, plus the leather wrapping material, a soldering iron, flux, silver solder, superglue, contact cement, a workbench, a vice, jewlers files, plyers, fine steel wool, two people, and a fair degree of experience doing this, plus an hour or two time and be able to cover overhead on the building - in order to stay in business, you'd probably have to charge at least $100.00 just to break even for this type of job with no real profit margin... That would be a fairly cheap rewrap.

A decent bow would support such a cost. A really nice bow would fetch quite a bit more for a rewrap. A cheap bow would not really be feasible to rewrap.

In a do-it yourself situation, anything goes.

[GlennYorkPA]

Craig, I appreciate the explanation from a professional's point of view and, in a sense, a cheap bow doesn't 'deserve' pure silver wrapping, but it seems that the labor charges and expertise are the same whatever the material used.

Unless it's fake whalebone lapping then I imagine the job is considerably less time consuming (fewer turns) and superglue is the only way to go.

[Brad Dorsey]

"The soldering is MUCH easier to do with two people."

I always do the soldering myself with no problem. The bow is held in the device I made for winding grips. After I have the wire positioned where I want it, I attach a clamp to the loose end. The weight of the clamp holds the wire tightly wound, and both my hands are free for soldering.

[Omobono]

On a related issue - I have a student who seems to wear off the silver plating on his bow winding very quickly with his index finger. Within three weeks of replacing it leaving (copper?)wire exposed!

I havn't seen this happen before - something in his metabolism? He doesn't seem to perspire overly and it is winter.

I thought of applying some clear nail polish to the surface. Any other iseas?

Omo.

[Craig Tucker]

"I always do the soldering myself with no problem. The bow is held in the device I made for winding grips. After I have the wire positioned where I want it, I attach a clamp to the loose end. The weight of the clamp holds the wire tightly wound, and both my hands are free for soldering."

Yes, I agree and I do something very similiar because I do quite a bit of rewrapping and silver winding, but for a one off repair project it is probably easier just to have an extra pair of hands than it is to make a tensioned winding jig, which is why I mentioned it above.

[Craig Tucker]

"Craig, I appreciate the explanation from a professional's point of view and, in a sense, a cheap bow doesn't 'deserve' pure silver wrapping, but it seems that the labor charges and expertise are the same whatever the material used."

That's sort-of why I often take pains to explain the procedure from both a professional viewpoint, and from a do-it-yourself point of view.

I wouldn't begrudge a repairperson charging a fair price for doing the re-wrap with quality materials since a re-wrap is really quite a chore to get looking really slick, or like a professional job.

On the other hand, we are here to explain things for those people who seek to learn to do the job themselves. In either case, a good result can be had. The price for a re-wrap might seem pretty high for someone who has never done one, but who, while simply thinking about it, might take it to be a simple task.

Aside from the silver wire wrapping, which is more difficult to get right than is immediately evident, the leather grip part has its own idiosyncracies that take quite a while to learn to do properly.

I like to think about it like I think about doing car brakes. Anyone can do a brake job in their driveway, but doing them at home, for me, isn't worth the time and trouble since I don't really have the proper tools to make the job go easily - like a lift, a pneumatic gun, the machine that turns the rotors, etc.

So, even though the new pads or shoes cost a very small portion of the job total, it is worth going to the tire store (at least to me it is) and paying them a couple hundred dollars to do the job right.

The job really isn't based much on the parts cost.

[muddycreek]

Following the discussion, I think I will try the superglue first and then if I have to I will solder. This isn't a super expensive bow and the winding doesn't need to be replaced. I just want to get the loose winding tight and secured so that I can install the new leather. Thanks all for the advice.

Muddy

[Andrew Victor]

With pure silver running (probably) less than $5.00/oz these days and a bow using little more than 2 grams (<0.1 oz) the actual value of the silver on a bow is negligible. It is the labor cost that adds up - whatever the winding.

But silver-wire windings are overrated, and (in my experience) overused. I have seen (and owned) bows that had been temporarily (for up to 40 years) ruined as optimum playing implements by overuse of silver-wire windings, when lighter weight faux-whalebone or tinsel (metallized and dyed thread) - or a much shorter silver winding - were more appropriate to balance the bows in question. "Professional" technicians were responsible for these travesties.

Andy

[Craig Tucker]

$5.00 an ounce in bullion form.

Good luck wrapping raw silver bullion around a stick. The wire is about ten times that much which would put it somewhere around $50.00 an ounce or (at 0.1 oz. per) right around $5.00 a stick - about what I guessed.

(and that would be the wholesale price of the wire - anyone in business that charges cost for parts soon goes out of business - I believe that the smallest spool available is 25 grams)

Not a big deal, but something to consider when contemplating the actual cost as a do it yourself project.

[Craig Tucker]

Also, I should mention that fake whalebone winding IS a much easier, much cheaper alternative to solid silver wire wrap.

For what it's worth, I would highly recommend it to anyone considering doing their first wrap on a mediocre quality bow.

[fiddlecollector]

Why does no one ever mention silk wrappings which can be very beautiful and when some bows are more or less balanced without a wrapping ,the weight of silk is negligable.

[Jacob]

DICK also has nickel-silver spun on silk which looks rather nice and is very inexpencive. The only problem is their spool is enough for probably 100 bows or more.

[fiddlecollector]

I was just mentioning silk with no silver, like was used in the transitional period and before.Baroque bow makers use it all the time but very rarely is it seen on modern bows. You can buy french silver tinsel(silk cored) and italian silks from various sources such as needlework websites/suppliers and flytying suppliers.You can get a far more interesting variety of materials and probably better quality than the silks bow making suppliers sell.Also they are far cheaper,sometimes as much as 1/10 of the price.

I buy silver wire which comes from a manufacturer in Alburquerque called Academy precision metals and the price is very reasonable.

[Regis]

When you replace 'another' winding with pure silver, is there a proper description? If the bow is not silver mounted (at least not 'real' silver) is there a hybrid name?

[Brad Dorsey]

Can you provide contact information for Academy? I couldn't find it on the internet.

[Craig Tucker]

"...is there a hybrid name?"

I think they simply refer to it as "nickle silver" which, if I'm not mistaken, has no actual silver in it.