Prices at real auctions

[Regis]

Def: "Real auctions" to me are where people can inspect or try-out before bidding.

How much difference do you think there is in starting price and estimated value of violins (or bows)that are setup vs not setup?

Scenario:

2 violins of the same maker in approximately the same condition and age. One is setup and can be demonstrated or played. The other has no strings or fittings.

Would the starting price and estimated value of the "ready-to-play" instrument be higher than the other?

I talking about higher than the value of strings and fittings.

Or, would they be considered the same? I realize bidding could go anywhere but, how would a responsible auction house handle this?

Regis

[Brad Dorsey]

I've been wondering about this exact question myself. The obvious answer is, "It depends on what the instruments sound like." But suppose I have I violin not set up that I've never heard, and I want to consign it to a real auction. Should I set it up?

I know of one violin shop that gets rid of nice-looking set up violins that haven't sold, presumably because no one has liked the sound, by removing the strings and bridge so no one can play them and consigning them to a real auction. I suspect this is a common practice.

[sammy444]

Quote:

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I know of one violin shop that gets rid of nice-looking set up violins that haven't sold, presumably because no one has liked the sound, by removing the strings and bridge so no one can play them and consigning them to a real auction. I suspect this is a common practice.

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Good information! I am guessing that there are many reasons that the auction houses purposely do, or say. for example the descriptions, "ascribed", "by","Attributed to", "label"...I am pretty sure they (auction houses) are not doing it for the buyer's best interest, they are trying to cover their bases, in case of any law-sue.

Cheers,

[pahdah_hound]

It has been my experience that dealers buy violins based on their construction, varnish, provenance, maker's reputation, condition, measurements, etc. and do not care what they sound like. A good luthier can make a good violin sound good.

Simlarly, a Tiffany lamp does not a lightbulb need.

Jesse

[Jimbow]

"... I know of one violin shop that gets rid of nice-looking set up violins that haven't sold, presumably because no one has liked the sound, by removing the strings and bridge so no one can play them and consigning them to a real auction. I suspect this is a common practice. "

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Sounds like a reasonable marketplace tactic!

This demonstrates three things:

1) The devious mind knows no limits.

2) The imagination usually exceeds the actual.

(Kind of like old time radio.)

3) and... That old P.T. Barnum saying!

Jimbow

[Michael Darnton]

I don't know how much more clearly you can say "this violin doesn't sound good" than prevent people from being able to play it. Conversely, if I had a violin I knew did sound good, I'd want to give it every possible opportunity to shine. I don't see anything at all obtuse in this!

[Regis]

My original question was how would a reputable auction house start (or value) 2 comperalbe instruments. A well set up instrument should get full value in the end. But, how does the auction house look at them? Do they raise starting price or add to the estimated value of the one that is set up? Or, do they lower starting bid and deduct from estimated value because one that is not setup can not be demonstrated/played?

[Michael Darnton]

Where's Chris Reuning when you need him? . . .

[Christopher Reuning]

I would say that I try to value the item disregarding the state of it's set-up. The state of restoration, however, certainly has an affect on it's value. Practically speaking certain items occasionally bring a premium price if they are desirable to a player so a well set up violin can bring a higher result. On the contrary, there are collector items that will bring more if they appear just "as is" complete with original bridge, old strings and crusted with dirt.

[Regis]

I guess that's as close to a "real auction" authority as I can get.

Thank you,

Regis

[Barry J. Griffiths]

It's not an uncommon practice for a potential buyer at a real auction to find a set-up instrument that they like the sound of and purposely knock down the soundpost. By the time the auction house catches up to the downed post and re-sets it many bidders concerned primarily with sound may have passed it by. Devious indeed and no, I haven't done it myself.

When I attend a 'real' auction I look for violins in good condition, with nice wood, workmanship, varnish, etc. which sound like tin cans. Players shy away from them. A regraduation and bassbar can breathe new life into a clunker.

Barry

[pahdah_hound]

A common practice at used car auctions was to pull a spark plug wire or even loosen a plug to make the engine skip. But I never saw a Rolls Royce grill and flying lady on a Chevrolet.

I would imagine there are less obvious ways to scuttle the tone of a violin, and I am sure all the ways have been tried. I imiagine bridge position alone would have a major effect and is something not as obvious as a soundpost.

I never try a violin at a preview, even if it is set up and I am planning on bidding. I am afraid everyone will turn to look as I play twinkle twinkle....poorly.

Jesse

[GlennYorkPA]

Regraduation of the old clunker is OK but I trust you wouldn't do that on the one with the nice wood, workmanship, varnish, etc. I like to think that a maker who was skilled enough to get these aspects right was following some principles for sound production.

Wouldn't regraduation be a very last resort after tweaks to bridge, strings, tailpiece etc had failed?

[Michael Darnton]

Some entire schools had construction ideas that have proven themselves not to work, and I mean some otherwise pretty good makers. When you hear people say "I don't like French violins because they sound XXXXX", for instance, that's a disproof to your first paragraph, and it's something that's easily fixed because they followed a couple of specific principles that were wrong, and are easily fixed. The most obvious externally-visible one, for instance is the typical French neckset of 1890. If it was so great, how come they seem to be the only ones who did it? And why do things improve when it's fixed? There are some similar school-wide graduation mistakes in violin history.

Additionally, you'd be surprised what some of those nice-looking violins look on the inside. Obviously all the talent went into making something that pleased the eye, and a lot of other things that weren't visible to the customer didn't count, including, de facto, if the violin sounds bad, things of tonal importance.