sammy444 Posted February 12, 2005 Report Share Posted February 12, 2005 LastChair, I agree with you about the "conflicting" nature of sellers, Certificates, and Appraisals...Make no mistake, the only reason a seller would want to get certificates, is to get the best price posible for their instrument. I know that what i'm about to say may step on someone shoe, But the fact that the "expert" get pay by the sellers, of the percentage of what they value the instrument...doesn't that causes some conflict of interest?? The higher the price they value the instrument, the more they get pay!! I am sure that, in most cases, most experts are honest. But, there is no check and balance for this system...To me, as usual, Power equals Coruption. If you hire the wolfs to watch the sheeps, even most of the wolfs are nice wolfs, it is just a matter of time until we get a bad wolfs whose will eat the sheeps. cheers, Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Regis Posted February 12, 2005 Report Share Posted February 12, 2005 If I were going to buy a high $$ instrument, I would have it independantly appraised. Unless, of course, if I knew who did the certificate/appraisal and verified it with them. The seller's certificate/appraisal tells me that the instrument is probably authenic but, because of the $$ investment, I better have it checked. If I heard someone brag about a stock their broker found for them, I wouldn't just go buy it without checking it out with my broker/analyst. Regis Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Darnton Posted February 12, 2005 Report Share Posted February 12, 2005 "Can a seller easily recoup the cost by getting a much higher price? " In many cases a seller can't even sell a violin without a cert. If you had the "Amati" under discussion, do you think you could sell it for $600,000 with no cert? Not a chance. So what's the difference between $0 and $600,000? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pahdah_hound Posted February 12, 2005 Report Share Posted February 12, 2005 I saw a violin with an estimate of $2500 sell for $41,000 + buyer's premium at a big auction. It didn't have a certificate but the guy who bought it can write his own. Now, how much is it worth? Is a $600,000 Amati worth $400,000 without a certificate, well advertised, at a major auction? $300,000? $500,000? $10,000? When a certificate adds so much value, it seems like a bargain for a seller. I would also think that puts a huge responsibility on the certifier to get it right. Jesse Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Darnton Posted February 12, 2005 Report Share Posted February 12, 2005 Again, at the auction, it's only worth something to the person who knows he can get a cert somewhere. Without a cert it's not an Amati, for all practical purposes--that's the core issue here. The price it would bring at the auction would be what any other similar Amatis would bring, but predicated on the idea that there would be a cert in its future. There is a huge repsonsibility on the certifier, that's right, and modern certs all have the phrase "In my opinion . . . " on them because of real lawsuits that have attempted to pin experts to the wall for their mistakes. Obviously, then, if you're going to get a cert that starts with "In my opinion. . . " you'd better pick an expert whose opinion is as close to flawless and universally accepted as you can find, not some local guy in your town who works out of his basement. I don't think players always realalize the full importance of this--how little it matters, to bring up a common situation, what your teacher thinks it is, no matter how much you trust him. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John_Jesseph Posted February 12, 2005 Report Share Posted February 12, 2005 Quote: Are you making a point here? I'm sensing some InSearchOfCremona nonsense coming on... Wow, Jack, astute observation... you may be right.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
flamenco Posted February 13, 2005 Report Share Posted February 13, 2005 There's a difference between someone asking a more knowledgable person "What is this worth" and the same circumstances where the seller asks "Will you give me $100 for it?" Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Darnton Posted February 13, 2005 Report Share Posted February 13, 2005 Bingo! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fiddlecollector Posted February 13, 2005 Report Share Posted February 13, 2005 If you refering to my comments ,i`m speaking from a purely ethical point of view, which is quite rare in the violin world. I know for a fact there still aren`t many genuine trustworthy ,honest dealers around.The only difference is in the amounts of money involved. I stupidly bought a violin off ebay recently because i was convinced that the seller didn`t know anything about violins (which he infered in his listing), turned out the violin was rubbish and the seller is quite a big U.K dealer, selling mainly high end Italians. When i told him i wasn`t happy he suggested selling it n ebay for three times what i paid, which is what he was hoping for.I didn`t pursue it ,as far as i`m concerned he can sod off! He obviously knew fine well how to sound dumb,but he is only one of many i`ve came across on ebay . I could put a large list of dealers and their i.ds on here ,but because i consider myself more professional than these dealers i shall refrain from doing this.These are people who you would probably never expect to see on ebay or perhaps hear them saying they`ve never heard of ebay. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Darnton Posted February 13, 2005 Report Share Posted February 13, 2005 So are you suggesting that YOU bought a violin because YOU thought you were taking advantage of an ignorant seller, but you got stung, and now you're complaining because your attempt to rip off the unwary turned and bit you because the seller out-snaked you? That's sort of what it sounds like to me, from the way you've told it. :-) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fiddlecollector Posted February 13, 2005 Report Share Posted February 13, 2005 Probably! I`d call it more looking for a good deal, but dealers don`t give away good deals.Would anyone here admitt that they would bid on an item which they thought could possibly be so and so, if they knew the seller was a dealer with decades of experience. No way would i have bid if i knew who the seller was. But in regards to the original question i think you`ll find that the most cunning buyers are probably also the most cunning sellers. And to add to the Betts story, perhaps this poorly dressed man stole the Strad and thought he`d got a great deal from Betts but the joke was on him. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chronos Posted February 13, 2005 Report Share Posted February 13, 2005 Michael, Didn't you once suggest, in a discussion about professional dealers buying expensive violins cheaply from unsuspecting sellers, that the seller is not the customer in such a transaction and, since he is the one who sets the price at which he's willing to sell, the dealer has done no wrong? How does the innocent buyer become a cheater when he's an individual instead of a professional dealer? I don't mean to be disrespectful, but I think there ought to be some consistency in your criticism. A dealer acting as an ignorant seller in order to rid himself of a worthless violin doesn't sound like an honest person. I do understand that the buyer bears a certain degree of responsibility in the matter (caveat emptor), especially in this context, but this should not serve as justification for the seller's intentional misrepresentation of his own expertise. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Darnton Posted February 13, 2005 Report Share Posted February 13, 2005 I beg to differ: I think I've been completely consistent. I didn't say the seller in this case was honest, did I? There can *easily* be two dishonest people involved in a transaction. In this case FC thought he was ripping an unsuspecting rube, and he turned out to be the sucker; neither party acted well. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chronos Posted February 13, 2005 Report Share Posted February 13, 2005 I agree there can easily be two dishonest people involved in a transaction. In fact, in the discussion I was alluding to I said that a dealer taking advantage of a clueless seller was unethical. I think I remember you objected to that statement, and for that reason I believe your comments about fiddlecollector ripping off the seller are inconsistent with your other comments. Having said that, I do believe that fiddlecollector bears much of the responsibility for his mistake. If he's going to act like an expert he better be ready to assume responsibility for his mistakes in that regard. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Darnton Posted February 13, 2005 Report Share Posted February 13, 2005 By the way, just to be clear, I'm not saying I wouldn't have done the same as he did in that situation. Fortunately, I don't hang out at Ebay, so it's not an issue. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fiddlecollector Posted February 13, 2005 Report Share Posted February 13, 2005 I don`t think i acted dishonestly, its an auction afterall isn`t it??? The seller sells at a price he`d like ,either with a reserve or not and accepts the risks . He should describe the instrument to the best of his knowledge,and i`m fine with that. The buyer bids on something which is legally for sale and if he happens to win (bad term in auction circles ,better to say the person prepared to spend/waste the most money on the item)at whatever price then theres no problem with that, if he paid too much ,then he/she should learn to control themselves. If someone asks me what i do, when i sell something i tell the truth. I don`t expect a big dealer to come out with comments like `those `f` shaped holes `, as if he hadn`t seen one before and act like he couldn`t tell the difference between a violin and a piano. I do accept risks and sometimes win, sometimes lose.I very rarely lose out financially if i attend an auction and can examine the item but if i`m going by pictures or i`m commission bidding its more risky. Also these big dealers with shops who operate on ebay as a `sideline` are in heaven offloading all their rubbish,hopefully to the other side of the world and forget about it. They can`t do that with someone who lives on the next street.They very rarely use their names on ebay ,usually a girlfriends name or friend.One particular seller/dealer i know of and Michael probably knows who i`m refering to,uses everybodies name in a 5 mile radius of his home. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Darnton Posted February 13, 2005 Report Share Posted February 13, 2005 One could also argue that stuff in an auction is supposed to stand on it's own merit, and it shouldn't matter who's selling it, or what name they use, unless the description is materially inaccurate. (I'm just taking the devil's advocate position here.) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fiddlecollector Posted February 13, 2005 Report Share Posted February 13, 2005 The difference between ebay and an auction house is you have direct contact with the vendor.Sothebys don`t pretend to be someone else. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chronos Posted February 14, 2005 Report Share Posted February 14, 2005 I think the ethical thing to do would be for the seller to state his (or his shop's) true identity and honestly describe the violin's characteristics and value, just as Tarisio does for its lesser priced instruments. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fiddlecollector Posted February 14, 2005 Report Share Posted February 14, 2005 I agree ,if you ask them, not hiding behind some alias! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
elidatrading Posted February 14, 2005 Report Share Posted February 14, 2005 Quote: I could put a large list of dealers and their i.ds on here ,but because i consider myself more professional than these dealers i shall refrain from doing this. I wish you'd put the ebay ids up at least - or tell us your own so we can go and look .... Liz Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LadyAmati Posted February 14, 2005 Report Share Posted February 14, 2005 You didn't act dishonestly. You just fell for a storyline and didn't realize you were dealing with a dealer. Ebay is probably full of dealers, and if a violin is not selling locally, for whatever reason, it goes on ebay. Unfortunately sellers sometimes concoct interesting stories of soldiers finding a violin, or old lady with deceased husband who was a concertmaster, and they're just some relative who inherited the stuff, and know nothing about violins, leading you to think that it's more valuable than it is. If you had known it was a dealer, you'd know that nothing really valuable would be put on ebay, as he would sell it as his shop. Thus the dishonesty was on the seller's part, not yours. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Barry J. Griffiths Posted February 14, 2005 Report Share Posted February 14, 2005 Quote: I think the ethical thing to do would be for the seller to state his (or his shop's) true identity and honestly describe the violin's characteristics and value, just as Tarisio does for its lesser priced instruments. I agree with you up to a point. An auction house usually gives a fair and reasonable description and estimated value. However, the 'true identity' of the instrument's seller will probably never be known. Once consigned to an auction house the instrument's owner becomes anonymous. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pahdah_hound Posted February 14, 2005 Report Share Posted February 14, 2005 Most large auction houses provide minimal description, and an estimate range. Many buyers bid hoping to get something"that fell through the cracks". A complete description is dangerous because it increases the seller's liability and decreases the upside potential. I know there are eBay buyers who will not bid on a violin offered by a dealer because they are looking for the "find in grandma's attic", and want to buy from someone who doesn't know what they have. Minimal descriptions with ommission of most detail both major and minor, limit the responsibility of the seller and puts all the onus of investigation on the buyer. IE; A VIOLIN Unlabeled. Minor repairs to top, overall very good condition. LOB 36.8 cm As soon as a seller provides additional description they are responsible for that description. What if the violin is too big to play? What if the violin doesn't sound good? Jesse Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chronos Posted February 14, 2005 Report Share Posted February 14, 2005 Quote: However, the 'true identity' of the instrument's seller will probably never be known. Once consigned to an auction house the instrument's owner becomes anonymous. I can see what you mean, but I think there's a better way to look at it: Because the auction house is the one that provides the description it is not really necessary to know the consignor's identity. Furthermore, reputable auction houses are not concocting stories about grannies who've found hidden treasures in their attics. Since you're dealing with the auction house rather than the seller, the auction house's reputation is at stake. Ebay is different because the seller is the one who sets the description and receives the money directly from the buyer. In this sense ebay is nothing more than a conduit, which is the reason why so many scams continue to appear on their site. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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