Tormek alternative?

[AMORI]

Can anyone recommend a sharpeing system that may not be quite as expensive as the Tormek system?

[Dean_Lapinel]

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[Mike_Danielson]

This subject has been discussed before--you might do a search.

Two ideas: (1) You can purchase the Delta 23-700 system for about $165. Replace the large diameter wheel with one from McMaster-Carr (60 grit) for about another $50.

(2) The cheapest is to purchase an arbor (say from Lee Valley tools) and use an old junk motor. You can make tool holders from wood that will provide the correct angle. Slow the grinder down to less than 1000 rpm by a choice of pulleys (slower the better--I would even go for 500 rpm). Use aluminum oxide wheels--make certain the coarsest is 60 grit.

Buy a diamond wheel dresser and keep the stones sharp.

[Okawbow]

I have done a fair job of hollow grinding tools by grinding against the top wheel of a 1" belt sander. You must grind away from the edge. Also, you must be carefull or you can burn the edge. However; after a few years of using the belt sander, I now use the Tormeck Supergrind 2000. It's much easier to get a perfect, lasting , and SHARP edge. I had to sell a violin to get it though...

[Michael Darnton]

I'm totally retro. I use a hand grinder with a GOOD tool guide, and that works great for me. You can get the grinders on Ebay for $15, and the toolrest I use costs about $40 more. I also use an old washing machine motor with a mandrel and felt wheel mounted on it, and a couple of water stones. The kit does everything I want it to do, it's not expensive, and I have never felt the need to spend hundreds of dollars on a tool that, uh, I haven't ever felt the need for. :-) [switches to catty mode] We violinmakers did without a Tormek for 500 years or so; what's the rush to have one now???

What I use (note the turntable grinder on the floor; I don't use it):

[Dean_Lapinel]

I know many good folks who go the simple route...usually Japanese stones though.

To re-state though...you don't need...no one needs ...a Tormek-

Until you own one

[Oded Kishony]

I made a grider using an arbor (see picture)

Note the >friction< drive.

I also use diamond stone and a water sharpening stone from a barber supply house. This stone is much harder than a Japanese stone and not porous so it's more friendly than the Japanese stones but still produces a mirror finish.

My knife is sooo sharp that the hair on the back of my hand just leaps off in fright.

[Dean_Lapinel]

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[AMORI]

Right. We have a small problem, I do not have many/any sharpening skills. But I do want to learn, do you guys know of a video or DVD on the subject. Or, preferably an internet site.

I have owned a furniture factory for 25 years but have never needed to develope these skills. We hardly even use hand tools at all. That's the way nowadays, all automated.

[ken_barlow]

This book is good. Readable and very comprehensive.

sharpening

By the way the cheaper Tormek (1200 series) is very good. Is this available in SA?

[AMORI]

Thanks Ken, I am thinking about ordering the 1206 from the UK (Toolpost). We can get it in SA but the price here is around 35% more than in the UK.

Our currency has been strengthening for the last 18 months but prices in general have not reduced. A few exceptions include the golf equipment industry where prices are on a par with overseas.

[AMORI]

Unfortunately the shipping price from the UK makes it too expensive. Back to square one.

[ken_barlow]

Probably, with a combination of something like this:

grinder

and these:

leather wheels

plus an electric drill, and a bit of ingenuity with tool rests etc, you could do most of what you could achieve with a Tormek.

You should probably be able to find a local supplier for these or similar, I would have thought?

[AMORI]

There are so few "specialist" items available here so I have to import almost everything. I can't find a supplier who sells anything but an ordinary bench grinder. I'll try this Axminster place, thanks.

[Neighbor's Bane]

I use a hand-cranked tool grinder. I got the "Keystone Railroad Tool Grinder" from Ebay, and paid about $35 plus $15 shipping. I see that model there often, but ones whose housing is cast with the name of the railroad that owned it tend to fetch railroad-buff collector prices, so try to wait for a plain one when it comes around. Mine came with the original tool rest, but I don't use it; I use the Veritas tool rest from Lee Valley.

The Old Tools email list - http://www.frontier.iarc.uaf.edu/~cswingle...ive/index.phtml - is an excellent resource for information on using a hand-cranker. Here's a particularly informative thread:

http://www.frontier.iarc.uaf.edu/~cswing...hread=1#message

I'm still a beginner at all this, but I started out grinding on a Baldor, and after a bit of practice with the hand-cranker I'm already getting comparably good results.

You'll probably want to get a new stone. I got one of the white ones Lee Valley sells. I read a post somewhere that warned against using the old stone that often comes with such an old grinder. The poster's hand was broken in several places when the stone flew apart. The old stones often have imperceptible cracks. Supposedly you can test their integrity by striking them with a piece of steel - they'll give a clear ring when they have no cracks - but you're probably better off playing it safe and getting a new stone.

- Danny

[AMORI]

Silly question to both Neighbor's Bane and Mr. Darnton. How do you turn the handle and hold the tool? Or, do I have to get the wife to turn the handle:-)?

[David_Gouthro]

"We violinmakers did without a Tormek for 500 years or so; what's the rush to have one now???"

We also did without electric purfling channel routers as well so; what's the rush to have one now?

[Michael Darnton]

Maybe one of you guys needs to lend me his Tormek for a while so I see what the big deal is, because I just don't get it. Or maybe you need to come to my shop so I can teach you what a big deal sharpening *isn't*.

[Jeffrey Holmes]

Michael;

You're happy to visit and use mine... and frankly, I'm sure I'd be happy using your setup.

I like the tormek 'cause the adjustments are easy and the wheel is a nice diameter and set to turn relatively slowly... and it's easy to move around. Nice machine.... I should mention that I bought mine when they first came out, so it wasn't quite the investment they are now.

Got along fine for years without it. Happy to have it now, but I'm sure if it were gone tomorrow, I'd be just fine. Think I'll stick with the electric lights, though.

[Michael Darnton]

In preparation for my Florida workshop I spent part of this afternoon setting up a hand-driven felt wheel. Strangely enough, I think it's going to do a better job than the electric one! We'll talk about this again in 10 years when the sea level has risen 60 feet, New York is under water, we're all working by candle light, and your Tormek is holding your door open because it's 85 degrees in Ann Arbor in February. :-)

I'm sure it's a fine tool (the Tormek, I mean), but unlike my purfling cutter, which cost me a minimal amount of money and saves me days of time, I've got about $30 into my grinders, and they don't cost me any time at all compared to electrical systems. For me it's just a cost vs payoff issue, really, and I can't justify the expense.

[Regis]

We did have one person cancel so, perhaps Jeffery could come down, and crank during the workshop Just to try it out that is...

Regis

[HongDa]

Is the main purpose for this to hollow grind?

And does hollow grinding make tools sharper?

I just do a flat bevel on my tools,.............maybe I'm missing something?

[Jeffrey Holmes]

Quote:

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We did have one person cancel so, perhaps Jeffery could come down, and crank during the workshop Just to try it out that is...

---

Today, that actually sounds like fun!

[Michael Darnton]

For me the main purpose of hollow grinding is so that I can hone only a tiny area of steel, at the tip and heel of the bevel, which goes much quicker than doing a whole bevel and provides a more stable two-point base for me to feel when I'm flat on the stone. And I grind out from the center of the bevel until I don't quite touch the edge, so that I don't have to hone out scratches in the edge.

However, when I worked at Bein and Fushi one person there did a series of tests and came to the conclusion that because the hollow doesn't touch the chip, that there's less resistance in planing with a hollow ground edge, and better sensitivity, while still having the same effective cutting angle. These days I hollow grind everything except for my gouges and my bridge knives--hollow-ground, carefully sharpened gouges don't work as well as ones with a slightly messy bevel--the gouge wants to dig down into the wood and has to chip its way out (make some drawings and you'll quickly see how it works) (In this context, the discussion of in-cannel gouges for arch and scroll carving made no sense to me, unless they're not being sharpened as in-cannels usually are--again, a drawing should clue you in on this). Likewise for knives that have to cut tightly concave areas, but there's a fine balance between "just right" and "doesn't work at all".

[Neighbor's Bane]

Quote:

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Silly question to both Neighbor's Bane and Mr. Darnton. How do you turn the handle and hold the tool? Or, do I have to get the wife to turn the handle:-)?

---

No, that's actually a very good question and the problem I'm still grappling with. I clamp the grinder to the front edge of the bench so that the axis of the wheel is perpendicular to this edge. In other words, the wheel is parallel to the front edge. I position my lamp so that it backlights the point where the workpiece hits the wheel:

-0- lamp

_______

|_______| wheel

________________________________________ bench front

me

I crank with my right hand and manoever the workpiece with my left. The tool rest is permamently bolted to a board, which I clamp down to the bench with the grinder, making sure the tool rest is square to the wheel. The Veritas grinding jig is a handy thing to have for this one-handed grinding method. It works best for plane irons and chisels, though not as well for knives, which I find I have to grind freehand.

- Danny