Did anyone here look close at this one?

[Regis]

This sold a month ago. I'll be able to see it this weekend. ebay-Landolfi??

Any comments or helpful tips?

Thanks,

Regis

[pahdah_hound]

I was contacted by a potential bidder on that auction for advice and I told her that the liklihood of it being authentic was very remote, somewhat like the odds of winning the lottery. I told her that you can buy a $5000 fiddle on eBay for $500 or pay $5000 for a $500 fiddle. What you cannot do is buy a $50000 fiddle for $1500. Or maybe someone can, it just hasn't been me. I also told her that I really don't know enough about violins to bid more than $1000 for anything on eBay.

Jesse

[apartmentluthier]

Another eBay "Landolfi"

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewI...item=3775491633

[pahdah_hound]

I have dealt with this seller and he is pretty legit. He bought a violin form me and was very decent. He doesn't represent this as by Landolfi like the first example does.

Jesse

[insearchofcremona]

Quote:

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This sold a month ago. I'll be able to see it this weekend.

ebay-Landolfi??

Any comments or helpful tips?

Thanks,

Regis

---

Hi Regis,

Please by all means call me if you are going to see the violin at home. I just looked at the auction pictures, and it looks genuine to me.

If it's possible that I may examine the instrument, I'll tell you in a New York / Boston second if it's genuine or not. If it is, I'll say so, if it is not, I'll say so.

Regards,

John

[Jeffrey Holmes]

A genuine what, John?

[Regis]

It's in Houston and I'll be "just down the street". I don't beleive it is real Landolfi but, I was looking for some tips that will help me when I actually get it in my hands so I can learn a bit more. If it looks close to real then, I have something to learn when I have it in my hands.

Of course, while in a large city, I will try to look at any violin shops in the area. I don't get "hands-on" authenic, high quality, old violins very often.

Regis

[Fellow]

He meant exactly as the label said "Landolfi's work"

The only person knew and one could trust was "Landolifi" himself, unfortunately unvailable now.

[insearchofcremona]

Quote:

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I was contacted by a potential bidder on that auction for advice and I told her that the liklihood of it being authentic was very remote, somewhat like the odds of winning the lottery. I told her that you can buy a $5000 fiddle on eBay for $500 or pay $5000 for a $500 fiddle. What you cannot do is buy a $50000 fiddle for $1500. Or maybe someone can, it just hasn't been me. I also told her that I really don't know enough about violins to bid more than $1000 for anything on eBay.

Jesse

---

Jesse,

You are a very honest and reputable person, and one of, if not the best eBay seller of instruments. I am saying it publicly, and I mean what I say. If people can't trust you, they can't trust anyone. I've been on eBay for over a year. I've bought some, and sold a few. I know that someone who participates in the Maestronet forums "jumped on me big time" when I first listed a violin or two for sale. A very good friend of mine informed me of these posts, and I recently found them in the archives. After reading them, I can only say that a deep, dark veil has been pulled over the eyes of the general public concerning the 'possibilites' of ever finding a rare and very valuable musical instrument from Northern Italy in the 'attic, closet, or barn' of granny so and so's old home place. Almost all of the so-called experts have said this for ages. I am, here and now, saying otherwise. This reprehensible practice is going to stop, and I am the one who is going to put a stop to it.

Furthermore, if anyone who participates in these forums has an instrument, which they have sound and good reason to believe may be a genuine and rare Italian, French, German or other nationality instrument in possession, and some so-called expert has poo-poohed it to be a fake, fraud or cheap whatever, get it touch with me, and I will tell you the truth of the matter. I am listed in the telephone directory.

John A. Thornton

Brewton, Alabama

[insearchofcremona]

Quote:

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A genuine what, John?

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[insearchofcremona]

Quote:

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He meant exactly as the label said "Landolfi's work"

The only person knew and one could trust was "Landolifi" himself, unfortunately unvailable now.

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You must be kidding!!

[insearchofcremona]

Quote:

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Another eBay "Landolfi"

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewI...item=3775491633

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This one is even better!!

[Oscar]

Wow. Landolfi completely changed typography on his labels between making the two violins - and the earlier one has the more up-to-date type.

[pahdah_hound]

Hi John,

I appreciate your opinion and while I might imagine that a nice old violin I buy might be a rare treasure, I have had a little experience that tells me that the liklihood is similar to a needle in a haystack. Perhaps there is a grand conspiracy amongst the owners and dealers of violin treasures that they have the only ones in existance. I know I can't tell the difference and I've looked at and held thousands, and owned several hundred. I know more today than I did yesterday and much more than a year ago.

For the life of me I still can't tell the difference with any certainty.

jesse

[insearchofcremona]

Quote:

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Wow. Landolfi completely changed typography on his labels between making the two violins - and the earlier one has the more up-to-date type.

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He used at least 3 different labels and at least 2 different repair labels. That makes 5 and each one has a different typography set, as well as different wording on the labels. So we could "assume" he may have even used more. Have you ever signed your name differently??

[Jeffrey Holmes]

Quote:

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I know that someone who participates in the Maestronet forums "jumped on me big time" when I first listed a violin or two for sale. A very good friend of mine informed me of these posts, and I recently found them in the archives. After reading them, I can only say that a deep, dark veil has been pulled over the eyes of the general public concerning the 'possibilites' of ever finding a rare and very valuable musical instrument from Northern Italy in the 'attic, closet, or barn' of granny so and so's old home place. Almost all of the so-called experts have said this for ages. I am, here and now, saying otherwise. This reprehensible practice is going to stop, and I am the one who is going to put a stop to it.

Furthermore, if anyone who participates in these forums has an instrument, which they have sound and good reason to believe may be a genuine and rare Italian, French, German or other nationality instrument in possession, and some so-called expert has poo-poohed it to be a fake, fraud or cheap whatever, get it touch with me, and I will tell you the truth of the matter. I am listed in the telephone directory.

John A. Thornton

Brewton, Alabama

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John;

I respectfully request that you to pull it back a notch on these forums.

First, rare means rare. If these were plentiful, they wouldn't be rare. There is no veil.

Second, I don't know who you are referring to with the term "so called experts", but those who really are experts have earned the trust they have in their respective fields. Your comments are disrespectful to them.

Third; I have nothing against the fiddle, but, in my opinion, it's not a Landolfi and suggesting it is is one is not responsible. Unless you are willing to back up the claim with cash when an unwitting buyer pays too much for it, I would caution you from making such claims.

[Korngold]

Quote:

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This sold a month ago. I'll be able to see it this weekend.

ebay-Landolfi??

Any comments or helpful tips?

Thanks,

Regis

---

Just compare the label to the rest of the thing. The label looks 200 years newer (at least from the pictures. It obviously didn't go through the same kind of hell the rest of that violin did. It looks like someone used it for batting practice and then glued it back together. Yet, the label looks remarkably pristine, and I'm not sure if that font was around before the advent of the Macintosh (fecit anno 1987).

Seriously, though, the label is a hodge-podge from what I can tell. I have Jalovec's book in front of me, which has two (presumably the only two) labels of Landolfi. The first one shows 1755 date, which should be closer to your label. However, it looks more "hand written" and less "times new roman", and his name is in Latin:

Carolus Ferdinandus Landulfus (first U may be an O)

fecit Mediolani in Via S.Mar

garitae anno 1755

The second (later) label in jalovec has his whole name in Italian. The label on your violin shows part of his name in Latin, and part in Italian, which I would venture to guess, he never put in writing. But he apparently ran it through the word processor that way.

Both listed labels had 3 lines, and the one on the violin shown was only two. Between the fonts, the mixed languages, and wrong number of lines (not to mention what looks like a barely playable violin), they didn't even try to make a good fake!

[insearchofcremona]

Quote:

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Quote:

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This sold a month ago. I'll be able to see it this weekend.

ebay-Landolfi??

Any comments or helpful tips?

Thanks,

Regis

---

Just compare the label to the rest of the thing. The label looks 200 years newer (at least from the pictures. It obviously didn't go through the same kind of hell the rest of that violin did. It looks like someone used it for batting practice and then glued it back together. Yet, the label looks remarkably pristine, and I'm not sure if that font was around before the advent of the Macintosh (fecit anno 1987).

Seriously, though, the label is a hodge-podge from what I can tell. I have Jalovec's book in front of me, which has two (presumably the only two) labels of Landolfi. The first one shows 1755 date, which should be closer to your label. However, it looks more "hand written" and less "times new roman", and his name is in Latin:

Carolus Ferdinandus Landulfus (first U may be an O)

fecit Mediolani in Via S.Mar

garitae anno 1755

The second (later) label in jalovec has his whole name in Italian. The label on your violin shows part of his name in Latin, and part in Italian, which I would venture to guess, he never put in writing. But he apparently ran it through the word processor that way.

Both listed labels had 3 lines, and the one on the violin shown was only two. Between the fonts, the mixed languages, and wrong number of lines (not to mention what looks like a barely playable violin),

Quote:

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they didn't even try to make a good fake!

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Who is/ are they??

The last thing I pay attention to is the label, besides, I didn't say anything about the label. I said that I believe that the violin looked to be genuine. Furthermore, if I could examine the one Regis is going to see, I can and will be able to determine if it is genuine or not.

Your doubt cannot overcome my knowledge, nor can it overcome what I believe.

I look for the genuiness in what I see in and on the fiddle itself. What I see in and on the fiddle determines if what I see is genuine or not genuine. The label comes last. If it is genuine, then I can hope that the violin is also. If the label is spurious, then someone took the original out and probably put it in a collection, or another fiddle which is not genuine, then offered it for sale or perhaps sold it as genuine.

There are many possiblities, and most importantly, nothing is impossible.

John

[Michael Darnton]

John's getting silly, again, I see, going on the faith-based expertise program.

I fail to see the excitement here, given that obviously neither one is a Landolphi.

[Jeffrey Holmes]

Quote:

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Who is/ are they??

The last thing I pay attention to is the label, besides, I didn't say anything about the label. I said that I believe that the violin looked to be genuine. Furthermore, if I could examine the one Regis is going to see, I can and will be able to determine if it is genuine or not.

Your doubt cannot overcome my knowledge, nor can it overcome what I believe.

I look for the genuiness in what I see in and on the fiddle itself. What I see in and on the fiddle determines if what I see is genuine or not genuine. The label comes last. If it is genuine, then I can hope that the violin is also. If the label is spurious, then someone took the original out and probably put it in a collection, or another fiddle which is not genuine, then offered it for sale or perhaps sold it as genuine.

There are many possiblities, and most importantly, nothing is impossible.

John

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I think you did, John.

"He used at least 3 different labels and at least 2 different repair labels. That makes 5 and each one has a different typography set, as well as different wording on the labels. So we could "assume" he may have even used more. Have you ever signed your name differently??"

[Regis]

All,

Let me correct a mis-understanding. I did not buy this. I contacted the seller (pawn shop) to see if they had any more violins. Mostly because I was going to visit family just down the street from them(in Houston). Seller emailed back and said they still had the Landolfi(?). I suppose buyer backed out???

Korngold,

Thank you for giving me something specific to look at. I've learned that lables are not very reliable(on ebay anyways) but, I like the way you analyzed it.

Regis

[insearchofcremona]

Quote:

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Hi John,

I appreciate your opinion and while I might imagine that a nice old violin I buy might be a rare treasure, I have had a little experience that tells me that the liklihood is similar to a needle in a haystack. Perhaps there is a grand conspiracy amongst the owners and dealers of violin treasures that they have the only ones in existance. I know I can't tell the difference and I've looked at and held thousands, and owned several hundred. I know more today than I did yesterday and much more than a year ago.

For the life of me I still can't tell the difference with any certainty.

jesse

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Hi Jesse,

The bottom line is this. There is no such thing as an 'opinion' which can be rendered when identifying a violin. Either it is, or it is not. The work of any Master Italian violin maker can be identified as such. On the other hand, the work of any Master Italian violin maker can be mis-identified as such. Then you have the deliberate, outright liar. It all depends on who is doing the identification.

In days long gone by, a few honest authorities pointed out, in writing, that some so-called experts, were not expert at all. What does this mean? It means that they knew what was genuine, but would not say a particular instrument was genuine in the hopes of getting it away from the unsuspecting, trusting owner. That means these few dealers were crooked, liars, thieves, and cheats. This has happened in the past, and continues into the present. I know it for a cold hard fact. Not only that, I can prove it.

I might have been born at night, but I wasn't born last night. For 30 years, I have studied the history of violin making and the business of selling violins even more than I've studied violins themselves.

Nobody can blow smoke up my 'you know what'. A couple of crooks tried it once before, but I guarantee they wouldn't try it again. If you don't believe me, just ask. I can prove it. I am not being disrespectful to anyone, I'm just stating the facts of life.

John

[nebuch]

Quote:

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"I look for the genuiness in what I see in and on the fiddle itself. What I see in and on the fiddle determines if what I see is genuine or not genuine."

_________________________________________________________

John,

We’re well aware that your M.O. is “I see what I want to see”.

[Korngold]

Regis,

Just so you know--I'm just a beginning hobbyist, not anywhere near a professional. But, to my eye, there were just too many discrepancies between the Jalovec book's labels for this maker and the images from that e-bay ad. You may want to ask one of the real professionals on here to back up my statements before accepting them as truth.

Let us know what you think of the instrument, though!

[Michael Darnton]

The one Regis is talking about has a label neatly printed in a totally late 1800s typestyle--that's an easy one to see, I think. The violin looks like a nice old German violin from a couple of centuries ago, but not in any way Italian. It's the kind of thing that when I see one I really wish the original label was there so we could give credit to the right maker. If you look through the various makers' dictionaries, you see tons of old German makers' names that no one ever gets to see a fiddle from--I'm just assuming this is one of those. Its next false incarnation, after the Landolphi idea wears off in today's slightly more sophisticated market, will probably be Kloz.

The other one's a lot less interesting, and probably more like late 1800s generic--it might never have even had a label. Someone like Chris R probably knows what city it's from.

I don't even look at labels anymore, though. Often I'll realize after looking at something and giving it back to the owner that I don't even know what the label said.