The Secretive Brits

[Tyler]

In reading "The Violin Makers" by Mary Ann Alburger, you realize how secretive the British makers are (maybe this has changed) when it comes to their varnish.

I think people on Maestronet like Michael Darnton should be applauded for their willingness to share techniques, knowledge and recipes.

[Wolfjk]

Hi Tyler,

Perhaps the Brits are not secretive but forgetful! By the time they finish, they don't know how they started!

Cheers Wolfjk

[Regis]

Quote: "Perhaps the Brits are not secretive but forgetful! By the time they finish, they don't know how they started!"

Now I really like that . Don't think that is a Brit thing, I hope. I can think of a number of places I could/should have used that line! And at my current age, I will definately begin to use it!

[fiddlecollector]

Very well put

[Seth_Leigh]

I haven't noticed any particular secrecy of the Brits who participate on Maestronet, least of all Fiddlecollector.

[fiddlecollector]

Thanks:)

But Wolfjk comments remind me of myself, i often dash into things and haven`t a clue how i did it.

But theres no secrecy involved to my knowledge

[Tyler]

More commentary is less about the Brits and more about makers like Michael Darnton, Henry Wake etc., that are willing to teach, instruct and share. There certainly are lots of American makers that hold their knowledge close to the chest, and understandably. I think a maker must adopt a new paradigm to share "trade secrets" with the general public. My hats off.

P.S. I don't share my steelhead flyfishing techniques with many, so I am just as guilty as the "Brits" in this regard.

[fiddlecollector]

I don`t think its being secretive, makers in the past had one or more apprentices whom they passed on knowledge to, apprenticeships in the U.K are now almost non-existant in most areas of work.Also many makers are not computer savvy and how are these supposed to share all their hard earned knowledge?

British makers in the past have shared their knowledge through outlets in the Strad magazine.George Wulme Hudson is one well known example and that was in the 1930`s so the Brits are far ahead in terms of knowledge sharing than the U.S or anywhere else. Italians if anyone were notoriously secret, as were the French.

Another example Heron-Allen, if Chanot hadn`t shared his knowledge that book wouldn`t have been written and there would probably have been a few thousand less violinmakers to share there knowledge ,i include Michael here Who readily admits being first interested by Heron-Allen.

[apartmentluthier]

Anyone a member of the Heron-Allen Society?

http://www.nhm.ac.uk/hosted_sites/heronallen/index.htm

[David_Gouthro]

The very best part of that book, IMHO, is when one old codger there states he replaced a scroll on some violin. Later the instrument was written up in the Strad by one of the "experts" in London praising the scroll. Apparently it was the only time his work was mentioned in that magazine.

To funny to be true.

[fiddlecollector]

I`ve found references to it several times!

It isn`t whats in the book but what it was responsible for not just in the U.K.

[grajki]

I don't think this is a matter of being secretive nor is it one of forgetfulness, more a case of not wanting to share what might not be the right thing to do.

In all of my short time to date of doing the violin making thing, I am constantly amazed at how many different ways there are do achieve the same end result; always the different approaches have pros and cons and are done for a reason, whether it be to save time, effort, or to avert catastrophy later on.

When it comes to varnish, I suspect that there is so much researched on the matter that in reality no one REALLY knows in what particular order particular coats should be applied and because of this, very few makers are willing to put their necks/reputations on the line and say that 'this way' is the way to do it. There are many different approaches here, and all work to varying degrees of success but at the end of the day it might work for one but will others be satisfied with it if recommended?

[fiddlecollector]

I think with varnish most people do what they like and if you sell them, what the customers like(they are very rarely the same opinions).Everyone steals or gets ideas off other makers to make doing something easier or better.

The only secret i keep is the Cremonese varnish recipe i discovered stuffed behind an old cupboard whilst on holiday in Italy many years ago

[Tyler]

If you read the book I referenced you will see almost all the modern day British makers who wrote in the book would freely state that are using oil or spirit and would maybe list an ingedient or two. But then they would also say they won't divulge the recipe. This in a book that is intended to hear their views on making and restoring. This is more effort to maintain the mystique, myth and lore of varnish.

[Alan_Coggins]

I don't think it is a "Brit" thing specifically - just a "violin maker thing". And sometimes I think that supposed secrets are just a way of covering up for a lack of knowledge or understanding.

I agree that people like Michael Darnton should be applauded for their openness; and I should also point out that the person who has helped me the most with varnish is British and a contributor to this forum.

[Wolfjk]

Hi Tyler,

----More commentary is less about the Brits and more about makers like Michael Darnton, Henry Wake etc., that are willing to teach, instruct and share.----

Accordoding to a book I read sometime in the past, Harry Sebastian Wake was born in Newcastle-on-Tyne in England. So it appears that these Brits are not as secretive as it appears but on the contrary: most of American violinmaking might have come via the Mayflower. It is more a question of memory!

Cheers Wolfjk

[Michael Darnton]

My family was near Darlington (thus the Darnton name--the exact place was Staindrop, so I guess we were the people-from-Darlington, which they pronounce there as sort of "dar-nton") around the year 1500 (there are still Darntons in Darlington, too) so maybe it's the sharing thing that's representative of the British, not the secrecy thing.

[Tyler]

OK, I've reeled in a red herring and I am glad to see the Americans coming to the aid of the British.

But seriously, I was struck by the sharing of minute details on construction and woods, but when it came to varnish, very little on specifics. Perhaps it was the era (circa 1978) and people are now more open. I apologise to anyone one who thought this was Brit bashing (it was not), they are generally jolly old blokes

[fiddlecollector]

Perhap they thought varnish wasn`t so important?

Regarding this nationality thing ,i believe its more to do with the personality of the maker who has the information,if hes like Vuillaume then you could call him secretive.But Vuillaume got rich being secretive! Only a fool gives everything away!

[Seth_Leigh]

There's a secret Michael has said in the past he'll never give up. I won't say what it is, though. That's a secret.

My last name, Leigh, comes from Wales, and there are many of my forefathers who came from there and elsewhere in the UK.

I'd be more inclined to believe that makers who are somewhat vague on what they do for varnishing are less trying to hold onto some super secret than they are declining to be set up for judgement by those holding another opinion of how it's done.

ps: I'm not joking about Michael's secret. Anyone else here remember what it is? hint: it's not the varnish

[ispirati]

It's the graduation.

[Seth_Leigh]

OK, that counts. His graduation of the back. I was thinking of another secret.

[Michael Darnton]

I'm flattered that you guys think I tell you everything. :-)

[Tyler]

Actually, it's to lure you out of your hole

[sweetmusic]

My name, Sweet, is also British. In fact, my grand mother's maiden name was Merry which I understand goes back to the Standish clan in Duxbury, MA. Her father was Fire Chief there for many years and was the town butcher as well. There are still many Merry's in Duxbury. The Sweets came were crown supporters and ship builders and fled to Nova Scotia during the revolution where they became sea Captains and carpenters, later doctors. Two brothers, John and James Sweet came down from Canada in the mid 1800s. One brother settled in the NJ area the other went out west to the new territories and settled in the OH area. These are the first of the US Sweets. I'm related to the NJ sweet. My Great Grandfather was an encyclopedia salesman in Princeton, NJ. His eldest son became a surgeon at the MGH in Boston where he met my grandmother, a young nurse there. Of course the rest is history

They say that selling is in my blood. I know it to be true. My other grandfather was born in Sligo, Ireland. He was a salesman in Ireland and came to the US when he was in his 50s. Married, had 2 children, and promptly died of indulgence (he was a straight-up whisky drinker). But he was also a salesman, and quite good at it. If it weren't for the booze, who knows what he could have done?

I agree for what's been said here about the Brits. In my experience they're not secretive at all. Perhaps reticent is a better word. Americans are so brash, nosy and pushy. We are used to getting what we want and saying what's on our minds. British are much more polite and careful. I have met only 1 hot-headed Brit, a woman, in my life. The others have been more than gentlemanly! And since I'm 3/4 English myself, I feel I need to stand up for "my" people.