apartmentluthier Posted January 3, 2005 Report Share Posted January 3, 2005 Anyone have any tricks ( hopefully meaning quicker ) for making nice fitting cleats. How does everyone shape each cleat to the belly? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fiddlecollector Posted January 4, 2005 Report Share Posted January 4, 2005 A small piece of thin abrasive paper in the area you want the cleat (abrasive side up)and rubbing the cleat back and forth a little will achieve a good fit as long as the cracks level to start with. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
apartmentluthier Posted January 4, 2005 Author Report Share Posted January 4, 2005 Do you leave the cleats as part of a single block, and just pare them off after fitting? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fiddlecollector Posted January 4, 2005 Report Share Posted January 4, 2005 I`m not sure what you mean? I just cut then to the aprox. size sand them to a good fit and glue them,then shape them and reduce the size/height a bit. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fiddlecollector Posted January 4, 2005 Report Share Posted January 4, 2005 I may be getting mixed up with Studs here, but basically the same way,apart from if the top is still on then they have to be shaped first and fitted by trial and error. Or do American refer to studs and cleats as the same thing.I usually refer to a cleat as slightly longer Stud! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brad Dorsey Posted January 4, 2005 Report Share Posted January 4, 2005 "Do you leave the cleats as part of a single block, and just pare them off after fitting?" Yes, I do them like that. I chalk fit them. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
apartmentluthier Posted January 4, 2005 Author Report Share Posted January 4, 2005 What shapes are considered "correct" on quality repair work (not that I have ever done any) I have seen diamonds, rounds, squares, and in the Weisshaar book something that looks like a half cylinder with the ends chamfered. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brad Dorsey Posted January 4, 2005 Report Share Posted January 4, 2005 I do them just as shown in the Weisshaar book, but they're considerably less than half of a cylinder. I glue them with Elmer's glue. Diamond-shaped cleats are also commonly seen, but they don't make sense to me. Previous comments on this board have suggested that if you have a good glue joint, cleats are redundant. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Darnton Posted January 4, 2005 Report Share Posted January 4, 2005 I've seen a lot of shapes. I think they're relatively all about as functional (= not much, in my opinion, as Brad says); it's just that different schools have different styles. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kevin Miller Posted January 4, 2005 Report Share Posted January 4, 2005 After seeing some cleats done by a local luthier I've started doing parallelogram shapes. I believe the theory is that it's better not to have the end of the cleat lined up with a single grain line of the top, or the cleat might encourage another crack as it shrinks. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Regis Posted January 4, 2005 Report Share Posted January 4, 2005 I think that is a great idea to always cross grain lines with cleat sides. None of these are mine, but here is one I'm working (for a friend) that has some "ok" and terrible cleats. I believe I'll replace it just cuz I can not leave it that ugly. Regis Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
apartmentluthier Posted January 4, 2005 Author Report Share Posted January 4, 2005 Regis, Glad to see that someone is working on stuff as "nice" as me I just removed a similar ugly soundpost patch. It was two flat squares clamped down that totally distorted the arching. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Craig Tucker Posted January 4, 2005 Report Share Posted January 4, 2005 "Regis, Glad to see that someone is working on stuff as "nice" as me" Tee hee! I swear this is true. I just removed a mud wasp's nest as well as a set of rattlesnake rattles from one of these mariachi project violins I'm working on... The violin has a "neck through" top block - no corner blocks, an integral bass bar, and a bolt recessed into the (some king of medium hard wood?) fb with the nut and a washer on the button in order to repair the heel crack... hand made pegs and - other than the various cracks in the top - it really isn't in too bad shape... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
insearchofcremona Posted January 4, 2005 Report Share Posted January 4, 2005 Last year I repaired a violin with some type of very old white to light tan colored cloth covering some cracks. I've got another violin open right now that has some type of tape looking stuff on the cracks. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DarylG Posted January 5, 2005 Report Share Posted January 5, 2005 Why Elmer's? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brad Dorsey Posted January 5, 2005 Report Share Posted January 5, 2005 "Why Elmer's? " Because I was taught to use it. The reason given was that the brittleness of dried hide glue can allow the cleats to loosen and buzz. But Elmer's doesn't dry brittle like hide glue. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Japes Posted January 5, 2005 Report Share Posted January 5, 2005 I've seen some older violins with thin strips of parchment instead of wooden cleats, which doesn't look dissimilar to old masking tape. The repairs held up very well. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jimbow Posted January 5, 2005 Report Share Posted January 5, 2005 John, I have not seen cloth reinforcement in a violin however Sacconi mentions that Stradivari used 7cm x 5cm cloth reinforcements spaced 5mm apart glued to the inside of his 1.3mm to 1.5mm thick cello ribs.(pg 49) It states that many were removed over the years because they were thought to cover repairs however no cracks were ever found. Interesting page also describes the tonal advantages of thin ribs, sometimes less than 1mm in violins. So, I guess cloth or linen may not be completely out of place inside a violin. Jimbow Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jimbow Posted January 5, 2005 Report Share Posted January 5, 2005 Hi Japes, The Strad magazine Feb 1991 has a fascinating 6 page article titled "The Problems Of Restoration" by Christian Rault. Rault presents a very convincing argument for removing an ever increasing number of wood cleats, particularily on the belly and replacing with round parchment wafers. Besides being of minimal weight and affect on the soundboard flexibility, the shrinkage of the parchment actually pulls the joint together and does not cause the internal stresses with humidity changes that a cross grain cleat creates. Very interesting article worth looking up. Jimbow Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Darnton Posted January 5, 2005 Report Share Posted January 5, 2005 Everyone who's in the business has seen cloth patches inside violins that have shrunk and distorted the outside surface--sometimes very seriously. The Raut article suggests the patches should be small to prevent this, and the size he suggested made me wonder if they were doing anything at all. I'm not big on any kind of cleat, myself, unless in a really necessary area. I fail to see why they're necessary on cracks--the ultimate perfect joint--but not on centerseams and I've seen more than enough cases where a cleat is still intact and the crack above it has shrunken, opened, and can't be easily glued from the outside because the top has to come off to remove the cleat. The only time I use them is when a crack is old and dirty. If I can't see the crack after it's glued, I don't usually cleat it unless I see a real good reason to do so. I'm the extreme position on cleats, and they're still in common use. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeffrey Holmes Posted January 5, 2005 Report Share Posted January 5, 2005 Jimbow; I just finished the restoration of a cello where I removed a number of those little parchment gems... Several were loose at the edges (made real nice noisemakers). One crack was distorted (pulled tight on the inside which left a nice ridge on the outside). Needless to say, I don't recommend them. I believe a number of European restorers have mentioned that parchment reinforcement does not do well in all climates. Although I see a point in Michael's anti cleat stand, I do use cleats on many cracks. I am less likely to on a clean crack on the flank (where there is less tension). I also tend to space the cleats farther apart than I used to in many applications. Unlike patches in some areas (which I believe have been over used in the past and may still be in the present), cleats are reversable (easily removed and don't take material from the original piece when they are installed). This isn't meant to justify their use, but my concern level drops when the repair technique isn't damaging to the piece. If a cleat is well fit & shaped, and the run doesn't line up on a single grain line (they are moved back and forth a bit), they seem to do rather well (and not cause new cracks). I work on several instruments where I suspect some repairs are quite old and are nicely stable. A possible argument: How would that same repair be without the cleats? Answer: I don't know... but I don't really want to take 'em out to try and find the answer. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Japes Posted January 5, 2005 Report Share Posted January 5, 2005 I agree, for what that's worth (very little), but I do think cleats have a place in saddle cracks. A saddle crack that hasn't been reinforced is trouble happening. Saddle cracks are a real irritation to me. They seem the result of poor design. There must be a way to prevent saddle cracks. Is anyone employing methods of prevention in the construction phase? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GlennYorkPA Posted January 5, 2005 Report Share Posted January 5, 2005 Jeffrey, I have seen (and I think it was in an old American instrument) cleats in the shape of bow ties actually inlaid into the wood with the grain at right angles to the grain of the plate. The surface was flush. At the time, I thought this was a rather neat idea because there would be no change to the wieght of the plate and the joint seemed very strong. Now I'm beginning to wonder if cleats create as many problems as they solve. Any comment on the 'bow tie' technique? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Darnton Posted January 5, 2005 Report Share Posted January 5, 2005 The only place I regularly use cleats is the same type of place as Japes. With saddle cracks, I can convince myself that at least some of the pressure breaking the joint is directed downward into the arching, in which case the cleat ties the backside and the crack area *might* be compressed instead of broken with a cleat backing it up. It takes some jumps of faith in my logic to come to this conclusion about the direction the force is coming from, but as a safety matter I do it. However on many cracks, because of the arching, I read the force as being essentially directed outwards from inside, which opens the crack and the cleat acts as a hinge on the backside--they're not strong enough, long enough, or often enough to provide any real bending resistance to do much. If the cleats were on the outside, I could see the use of them. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeffrey Holmes Posted January 5, 2005 Report Share Posted January 5, 2005 Hi Glenn; Yes... I do have a comment on the bow tie technique... It's bad news (the language in my mind is stronger.... ). I had an interesting experience with this "repair technique" several years ago. A V. Panormo violin came in to the shop for restoration and resale. A repair person had installed "bow tie" patches up and down the center joint on the top, as well as on two flank cracks. The repair person was so proud of his work that he signed his name in the top and dated the repair. This is usually a bad sign anyway. In my experience, good restorers like to go in and come out quietly and leave as few road signs as possible. Because of the movement of the top against the insets, the bow ties had cased new cracks at every junction... We needed to solve several problems: What to do with the void when the little critters were removed, how to reinforce the (now) multiple cracks they caused, and how to reverse the distortion caused by the previous repair. All ended happily. The violin is owned by a very good player who loves it. She knows the whole story. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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